Match Day Thread Tottenham Hotspur v Bayern Munich
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Bollocks you didn’t mean it
.Agree now though, he is shocking. ****ing annoying. Such a good player who’s just tarnishing his rep week by week. Really need to get him out in January, **** knows why your boy Jose keeps playing him over Lo Celso, some dumb ****.
Yup. Fun times, eh?
Don’t think it’s for long though but these little niggling injuries are becoming too regular for my liking.
I don't listen to the commentators during our matches, nor do I listen to the pre or post-match bollocks, so I missed this last night from Jermain Jenas on the subject of Eric Dier...
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"I feel harsh but every time I watch him I feel like he’s absolutely shattered. Maybe he needs more minutes in his legs and games like tonight will benefit him but Skipp has got closer to Coutinho, and isn’t allowing him to toy with him.
"He can’t be fit enough. It’s a tough place to be when you’re not at your sharpest or your fittest. My thought is that Jose really must like him. He’s definitely not [good enough to play every week]. Jose might stick with him, but in my opinion he’s not."
Fair play to Jenas for saying it. I'm prepared to give Mourinho a chance at Spurs but I cannot understand why he's giving Dier so much game time. If it was just form, then okay but he's a million miles off being fit enough to play. Worse still, there's been no sign that it's getting any better. He looks as far behind play now, as he did weeks ago.
I'm trying to avoid saying that this is exactly why I feared Mourinho's appointment but now, I've said it. Starting Eriksen and Rose and bringing on Wanyama just make my concerns much worse. Their time has come and long gone but until we cut them from our thinking, we're not moving forward.
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"I feel harsh but every time I watch him I feel like he’s absolutely shattered. Maybe he needs more minutes in his legs and games like tonight will benefit him but Skipp has got closer to Coutinho, and isn’t allowing him to toy with him.
"He can’t be fit enough. It’s a tough place to be when you’re not at your sharpest or your fittest. My thought is that Jose really must like him. He’s definitely not [good enough to play every week]. Jose might stick with him, but in my opinion he’s not."
Fair play to Jenas for saying it. I'm prepared to give Mourinho a chance at Spurs but I cannot understand why he's giving Dier so much game time. If it was just form, then okay but he's a million miles off being fit enough to play. Worse still, there's been no sign that it's getting any better. He looks as far behind play now, as he did weeks ago.
I'm trying to avoid saying that this is exactly why I feared Mourinho's appointment but now, I've said it. Starting Eriksen and Rose and bringing on Wanyama just make my concerns much worse. Their time has come and long gone but until we cut them from our thinking, we're not moving forward.
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Levy is the one who should have cut them from our thinking long before now? Therefore they are not anywhere near the club and the manager does not need to utilise his assets even if they are stinking the place out.
Jose has obviously given the players a clean slate and judging them for himself. He’s been here 3 weeks and I think unlike the bubbles Poch used to talk about in Pressers...Jose has been honest and there’s a lot to read into the comment that he has “learned a lot from the Bayern game”(with regards to the players limitations, I guess)
He probably sees Dier as the best tooled to be his long term DM and he’s hoping to tap into the Dier we have all seen in the past...like he managed to tap into Dele.
We all say games is the best way to get up to speed and Dier is getting serious minutes. I agree with you about Foyth though...I’d stick him in DM he’s got the game for it and is a natural defender...makes sense.
I don’t understand why Jose seems to be getting such a finer line to walk on though...he deserves the chance to find a solution out of this mess Poch managed to create for us in the first 3 months of the season. Then once he has solutions it’s up to Levy to back him. In between that he’s definitely been a positive impact regarding what he has to work with.
At the moment I won’t look too much into Jose’s judgements as I think he needs a window or two before things can be really scrutinised.
He’s done a fair bit right so far (cynics could say that’s just *new manager effect*) but in two of his six games I’ve been left scratching my head. The Utd set up was just pure wrong, that CM just never works and never will.
Then last night there was an opportunity to give the future of this club experience yet we persisted with too many who won’t be here past January or the summer.
I’ve expected more from someone of his calibre.
We don't need to find a replacement if we play a different system-which is what we are doing.
I agree you don’t need to find a direct person but you need to replace his input. Hopefully Tanguy can replace the creativity he provides but with all these constant injuries it’s hard to truly tell.
Poch got sacked because his management had become sub-standard on any number of fronts. I've no quibble with that at all and I've accepted that the appointment of Mourinho had a degree of logic to it. So now, it's all about whether we throw off old failures and move forward. I'm struggling to see that yesterday did that to any acceptable degree.
I fail to see that giving Eriksen a start increases our knowledge on any front. The same goes for Rose....and Wanyama being subbed on....and Lucas up top.....and Dier. I'm mystified as to why we junked any sensible shape and played Lucas up top, which meant that Parrott got no game time.
On Dier, if it was just form that was the problem, then I'd agree...but the bloke's not fit and I cannot see any improvement. It's time for the manager to put his arm around Dier's shoulder and tell him that he needs to sort himself out before we can put him back in the line-up. That's what I expect from Mourinho. There's no point in being blunt in press conferences and ignoring the evidence on the pitch.
It's worth remembering that we accepted offers from Watford for Rose and a couple of clubs for Wanyama but they wouldn't take the reality that their fitness and form means that we're overpaying them now. So, we're stuck with them.....but there's no need to make matters worse and put them on the pitch, unless we absolutely have to.
I dare anyone to say with conviction that we didn't want to sell Eriksen or Toby in the summer. Both want to leave on a free and land a huge signing on fee. I'm wearing Alderweireld playing because he's the best player we've got in that position and he's still playing like it. Starting Eriksen last night was pointless.
Maybe Mourinho learned stuff last night....but a lot of it should have been blindingly obvious and he missed a hell of a lot of opportunities to learn things that weren't. On that, I'm calling him out.
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I’d agree with all of that bar:
“I'm wearing Alderweireld playing because he's the best player we've got in that position and he's still playing like it.”
He was the best CB in his first season but after that I’d say Jan regained that marker (Toby was still great). Although this season, and for probably half of last season, he’s been utter dreadful. Carried this season by Dave Sanchez who has bailed Toby out a number of times. Dave himself hasn’t been faultless but I can’t believe how bad Toby has been.
I’d happily see Jan given a years contract extension but I really hope I see Toby depart in January with a new CB or two coming in.
I watched him closely against Bournemouth and Olympiakos and there are some significant problems around him.
Firstly, Serge Aurier's sub-standard as a defensive full back. Toby's got half of his defending to do, especially when Lucas isn't tracking back. KWP's just not ready to play first team football at this level and offers no improvement.
Secondly, Sanchez is getting pulled out to cover Rose's inadequacies. That leaves Toby isolated, and vice versa for Big Dave.
Thirdly, our midfield currently offers all of the resistance of warm ice cream. Teams just walk through the middle of us...and United did just that, at will. Expose any centre back that badly and they'll look overrun.
I'll give Mourinho that we've stopped playing chicken with the ball at the back and reintroduced the 70 yard Toby pass to Dele. It's made a significant improvement and I doubt whether we'd have beaten Bournemouth without it.
For me, of our problems, Toby's current form is a little ways down a longish list
Definitely won't knock his passing, he's a brilliant 'long-baller' but regardless of whether we have a solid DM or not, his positioning and marking has been all over the place, countless times he's lost markers from corners/ crosses and his all round play doesn't seem as assured as it used to be. I also now see why no one took advantage of his £25m release clause, perhaps clubs were noticing a decline. I'm not surprised at rumours surfacing of him now wanting to stay, it's likely he won't get a move to a bigger/ better club than us right now.
As poor form goes, only Rose, Aurier (pre-Jose, now looking 'better'), Winks and Dier have been worse in my opinion.
I feel we need to try and take a leaf out of Liverpool's book and look for a van Dijk-esque signing. He instantly improved their backline after signing in the winter window, it was then so much better once Fabinho and Alisson were added in the summer to improve their whole defensive dynamic. I don't know who exactly that type of CB could be for us, Koulibaly would tick a lot of boxes if he's good as he's hyped up to be, someone like Nathan Ake could have some sort of effect or <an other> but for me we need a real shake-up at the back. I hope the majority of our budget this January is split between a CB and a DM, ideally with hopefully some left overs for a FB or two but that's wishful thinking to expect all of that in January though, so just a CB and a DM would be perfect for now in my opinion and it's reasonable to expect that too I'd say.
Nice of Deschamps to say he wasn't, keep him on the bench for two games including an away trip to Albania, before returning him to us in a state of disrepair
I can't disagree on the issue of crossing into the box. Corners are really painful to watch, especially considering that we're a fairly tall team but 6 footers like Sonny, Moussa and currently Dier, don't offer anything at all.
Toby's performance is very underwhelming on this front. He's static and ineffective. Davinson Sanchez is mystifying in that he's an aerial colossus for Columbia, yet not for us. Harry Kane and Jan Vertonghen are the saving graces. For all his height and physique, Gazza's only slightly better than Hugo.
If I had to rate our need to buy, given what we've got at the club right now, it would be...
1. Combative deep lying midfielder - Wanyama's finished. Dier's miles away from what's acceptable. Moussa lacks some discipline and Harry Winks doesn't have the physicality for the role.
2. Right back. Aurier has improved going forward but his defending is frighteningly bad. KWP's not ready and Foyth isn't getting a look in....maybe after a positive game last night, he'll get a chance?
3. ...depends on Ben Davies. If he's out in the long term, I'd put left back ahead of centre back. Danny Rose is done and i don't want to see him on the pitch again. Jan Vertonghen can't play out the rest of the season on his own.
4. Centre back. Even out of form and wanting to leave, until next summer, we have better options in this position than the ones above.
My priority would be:
CB - It's too leaky for my liking and we need to start building the defence around Dave Sanchez. The dream is for a van Dijk-esque addition but just someone who can perhaps add a bit of life again into the position would do. We enjoyed some great years watching the Toby-Jan partnership, I'm hoping we can try and see a new one develop with Dave-<new CB>.
DM - Dier once a week I can just about live with for now (just!!!). I thought he was fine vs West Ham and good vs Burnley but in the two CL midweek matches he's been horrendous. Skipp should be getting more minutes because of this or - as you and others have said - give Foyth a go in the role, at least until January. But come January 1st, a DM (alongside a CB) needs to be sorted and done in that first week, no faffing about until the 31st. Ideally we'd already have someone lined up to join immediately when the window opens but we're Spurs and we don't do it the easy way.
FBs - both equally as important. I really like Davies and I have to give props to Aurier of late as I think his attacking game has been very impressive but both lack opposite qualities to one another. Davies can't attack and Aurier can't defend. So if we can bring in a LB and RB who can do the opposites of each player, it can give Jose a good mix to switch things up when necessary on either flank. Right now though, I can live with the current options at FB if I were promised the first two priorities will be sorted in this upcoming winter window.
I think a lot of you are over analysing yesterday's game. It wasn't a critical game so Jose was able to experiment a little, as well as give Dier more opportunity to regain match fitness.
In these games, there's no point scrutinising the managers tactics and selection but I will say it was frustrating parrot didn't start!
In these games, there's no point scrutinising the managers tactics and selection but I will say it was frustrating parrot didn't start!
I see your point but completely disagree at the same time. Typical Gemini!
I have no problem with resting players, experimenting with formations or looking at squad members. We saw starts for Foyth, Lo Celso and Sessegnon.......and Skippy got on the pitch...all very good.
However, I see no point in starting Eriksen or Rose...or bringing on Wanyama....or playing Lucas as a central striker instead of Parrott. We know what those choices mean and last night was no different. If the bloke who picked those players hasn't worked out why they were mistakes, he must be Jose Mourinho's brother.
If we had a rookie in charge, like Ljungberg, I might be a bit more charitable. However, we're paying Mourinho to be a whole lot better than that. I don't want the club to be buying a striker if Parrott's ready or having Oliver Skipp's path blocked, if he's properly due an extended run. Now we go into the Christmas period with it underlined that Rose is awful, Eriksen is disinterested, etc., etc.
We should have learned a lot more and that's very disappointing...
Not so.
I wanted to see if/how academy + certain fringe squad members would fare
in the CM section of what I believe is Joses' intended formation, in the face
of quality of the likes of Munich.
The result (bar another humiliation) was secondary.
So I consider it an opportunity wasted (given the rarity of these fixtures) .
Pass map time
Says a lot that Gazza and KWP passed to Lucas far more than Eriksen did...
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Says a lot that Gazza and KWP passed to Lucas far more than Eriksen did...
Nobody at all passed to Rose. Quite right, too.
Still, he knows what he's worth.