Match Day Thread Tottenham Hotspur v Liverpool

[Dier Hard]

So what is he to say? Yes NDombele came on and we were much better and Winks and Eriksen were crap! You just can't do that as a manager you have to keep your council regarding detrimental opinions of players. You have to talk up your squad in public. Plus you are making assumptions that he actually agrees with your view on these players.
After all up until the Bayern game you were still telling us that Eriksen was our best player. It's about opinions and that's the basis of discussion. I always go back to Darren Bent several top managers thought he was worth 10's of millions I thought he was crap from the beginning at Charlton but it's about opinions.

Yes.

 

[Citizen Kane.]

So what is he to say? Yes NDombele came on and we were much better and Winks and Eriksen were crap! You just can't do that as a manager you have to keep your council regarding detrimental opinions of players. You have to talk up your squad in public. Plus you are making assumptions that he actually agrees with your view on these players.
After all up until the Bayern game you were still telling us that Eriksen was our best player. It's about opinions and that's the basis of discussion. I always go back to Darren Bent several top managers thought he was worth 10's of millions I thought he was crap from the beginning at Charlton but it's about opinions.

Ultimately actions speak much louder than words. I listen to his conferences with a pinch of salt next to me as so much of what he says is either meant to toy with the press or simply misinterpreted due to the language barrier.

The simplest and clearest way to demonstrate that he believes Tanguy to be more effective than Eriksen or Winks is to just play him and let him get on with it. So far, that hasn't happened. I'm willing to cut him some slack as Tanguy clearly wasn't up to speed at the beginning of the season and then had an injury setback, but time is rapidly ticking towards a point where Poch will have dug himself into a hole with these decisions.

 

[Spurlock]

I reckon Poch spends most half time team talks trying to convince the players that he didn't mean it...that he was talking rubbish about leaving... therefore

"please can you put a performance in for me?"

I had this thought pass through me a few days ago. I was thinking, due to the odd team selections that he's trying to get himself the sack. I mean he's not walking away from a big contract and Levy isn't sacking him to the tune of 30 mill(estimate), no chance. They just living together, no sex, different bedrooms

I've seen it before...I'm smelling it again.

 

[humanbeingincroydon]

Last Word on Spurs are spreading a bit of Narrative about how Lo Celso complete "only" elevent less passes than Eriksen in his cameo on Sunday

Here's a rundown of how many passes our players completed on Sunday
Sissoko - 23
Dele - 22
Sanchez - 22
Alderweireld - 20
Winks - 18
Son - 17
Eriksen - 16
Rose - 13
Aurier - 13
Gazzaniga - 11
Ndombele - 10
Kane - 9
Lo Celso - 5

In other words, clickbaity bullshit that only the Reddit/Twitter crowd will latch onto without questioning it in the downtime between flexing that they're gullible enough to pay for an Athletic subscription, because what sort of idiot falls for a "stat" that really says Lo Celso completed the least amount of passes of anyone on the pitch?

That being said I was surprised by that stat: Eriksen actually completed 16 passes? When? I'm assuming two of them must have been from kick-offs, but that's 14 completely unaccounted for...

 

[Citizen Kane.]

Last Word on Spurs are spreading a bit of Narrative about how Lo Celso complete "only" elevent less passes than Eriksen in his cameo on Sunday

Here's a rundown of how many passes our players completed on Sunday
Sissoko - 23
Dele - 22
Sanchez - 22
Alderweireld - 20
Winks - 18
Son - 17
Eriksen - 16
Rose - 13
Aurier - 13
Gazzaniga - 11
Ndombele - 10
Kane - 9
Lo Celso - 5

In other words, clickbaity bullshit that only the Reddit/Twitter crowd will latch onto without questioning it in the downtime between flexing that they're gullible enough to pay for an Athletic subscription, because what sort of idiot falls for a "stat" that really says Lo Celso completed the least amount of passes of anyone on the pitch?

That being said I was surprised by that stat: Eriksen actually completed 16 passes? When? I'm assuming two of them must have been from kick-offs, but that's 14 completely unaccounted for...

Eriksen completed all of his passes from corners and free kicks. They went straight to Robertson at the near post.

 

[humanbeingincroydon]

In a way, he was very fortunate with the cohort he inherited when he took over. No question he improved all if not most of them, but you have to stop for a moment and consider that all of Walker, Kane, Rose, Eriksen, Davies had already broken through at PL level before his arrival - in some cases (Walker), long before. Then Lamela, Dier and Son had more than a year of playing in the top flights of Italy, Portugal and Germany respectively. Add to that Wanyama, Jan, Toby, Dembele, were all established players when they/he joined.

So unless I'm missing something, the only players we've plucked from relative obscurity or successfully promoted from the academy under Poch's watch are Dele, Winks and Foyth. And currently Dele's form has plummeted, Winks simply isn't good enough and Foyth is unproven.

Poch is clearly at his best taking semi-established talent and developing it into something special. Exactly in line with our summer signings. The trouble is, over the past 5 years the average price tag on semi-established young talent has risen exponentially, so much so that we forked out £30m + Onomah for Sessgnon, Arsenal committed £32m for an 18 year old with 12 games under his belt, etc...
And so his job has gotten that much harder, and more expensive, to do.

Ryan Mason would like a word with you...

 

[Citizen Kane.]

Ryan Mason would like a word with you...

So would Nabil Bentaleb, and Andros Townsend, and Tom Carroll, and Jake Livermore and many many more academy products who came of age in Poch's regime and didn't make it.

Harry Kane remains the only academy graduate who has really 'made it' under Poch. I think it is clear that, as I said, he is at his best taking already somewhat developed talent and developing it further. And that category of player has become significantly more expensive over the past 3-5 years. Whereas a promising player from League 1 went for £5m 4 years ago, that would now be closer to £15m. A promising, PL proven, home-grown 21 year old LB (Davies) would go for £30-40m nowadays, not £11m. Someone like Eric Dier would cost quadruple what we paid for him 5 years ago, and that is simply the surcharge for answering the phone to a PL club. Davinson Sanchez' price tag is the clearest indication symptomatic of what I'm describing. 1 full season in a significantly inferior league with a few appearances at the world cup? That'll be £40m, please. And the price tags for N'Dombele, Sessegnon and Lo Celso further reinforce the new reality. What had any of those players accomplished to warrant costing circa £35-55m? Nothing. Nowadays it is fashionable to pay for raw potential.

 

[Dier Hard]

So would Nabil Bentaleb, and Andros Townsend, and Tom Carroll, and Jake Livermore and many many more academy products who came of age in Poch's regime and didn't make it.

Harry Kane remains the only academy graduate who has really 'made it' under Poch. I think it is clear that, as I said, he is at his best taking already somewhat developed talent and developing it further. And that category of player has become significantly more expensive over the past 3-5 years. Whereas a promising player from League 1 went for £5m 4 years ago, that would now be closer to £15m. A promising, PL proven, home-grown 21 year old LB (Davies) would go for £30-40m nowadays, not £11m. Someone like Eric Dier would cost quadruple what we paid for him 5 years ago, and that is simply the surcharge for answering the phone to a PL club. Davinson Sanchez' price tag is the clearest indication symptomatic of what I'm describing. 1 full season in a significantly inferior league with a few appearances at the world cup? That'll be £40m, please. And the price tags for N'Dombele, Sessegnon and Lo Celso further reinforce the new reality. What had any of those players accomplished to warrant costing circa £35-55m? Nothing. Nowadays it is fashionable to pay for raw potential.

Bentaleb probably would've made it if it weren't for his dickheadedness. At least for a while longer than he did anyway. He's been the best of the CM graduates to come through out of him, Winks, Mason, Caroll and Livermore in my opinion (won't include Skipp just yet).

Prices in general though are rocketting, although the finances within football are increasing too so £15m is the new £5m and £40m is the new £15m-£20m. We're still essentially able to bring in the same amount of players though I'd say, including of a higher pedigree thanks to CL participation. If the market was like how it was five years ago, Tanguy, Gio, Sess and Clarke would've cost roughly a combined £50m (which was generally our ballpark figure for budgets back then) instead of the circa £140m they did this window.

Ollie Watkins can probably be got for £20m-ish at the moment, just sayin' .

 

[Spurlock]

Our revenue has increased aswell

If the numbers are too much going out but fine coming in then Levy /ENIC need to find a new project

 

[humanbeingincroydon]

So would Nabil Bentaleb, and Andros Townsend, and Tom Carroll, and Jake Livermore and many many more academy products who came of age in Poch's regime and didn't make it.

Harry Kane remains the only academy graduate who has really 'made it' under Poch. I think it is clear that, as I said, he is at his best taking already somewhat developed talent and developing it further. And that category of player has become significantly more expensive over the past 3-5 years. Whereas a promising player from League 1 went for £5m 4 years ago, that would now be closer to £15m. A promising, PL proven, home-grown 21 year old LB (Davies) would go for £30-40m nowadays, not £11m. Someone like Eric Dier would cost quadruple what we paid for him 5 years ago, and that is simply the surcharge for answering the phone to a PL club. Davinson Sanchez' price tag is the clearest indication symptomatic of what I'm describing. 1 full season in a significantly inferior league with a few appearances at the world cup? That'll be £40m, please. And the price tags for N'Dombele, Sessegnon and Lo Celso further reinforce the new reality. What had any of those players accomplished to warrant costing circa £35-55m? Nothing. Nowadays it is fashionable to pay for raw potential.

Mason made his first team breakthrough under Poch - Bentaleb was under Sherwood (and I'm sure I'm not the only one remembering all the jibes of him being Sherwood's son for half a season), Townsend under AVB, and honestly did Tom Carroll actually break through at Spurs? He looked like he might do so under Redknapp and AVB but never did, so at best he was in the same boat KWP currently sits in

The real issue is that if we're going to nurture a player they need to have a high ceiling, and the issue is that so many of our academy players have a ceiling that's squad player at best. Take Townsend as the perfect example: at any point in his Spurs career would anyone suggest he was on a par with Aaron Lennon? And that's the fairest comparison, as the only other direct comparison from the time he broke into the team was Gareth Bale when he was full-on Super Saiyan. But the question's just as relevant for now, as does anyone see him as being on the same level of Son, Lamela or Lucas?

It's not been helped by the academy letting players stagnate for the last couple of years, which not only saw the likes of Bennetts and Griffiths leave but I'm certain is a large part of the reasoning for Poch having Parrott and Skipp train with the first team, but there is a track record of academy players having much lower ceilings than we thought, reflected by the likes of Carroll, Pritchard and Luongo all being Championship regulars while Griffiths has all but vanished off the face of the earth

 

[Dier Hard]

It's interesting that you mention Mourinho and Wenger because both clubs they left have gone backwards which is where Spurs would probably go if we get rid of Pochettino. I wonder if you spend too much time looking at stats and you have too high an opinion of your own opinions. Is it arrogance or lack of understanding that makes you think you know better than Pochettino? It's a good job we don't apply the same logic to hospitals. There are only four possibly five clubs in the PL who can afford to change their manager and rely on heavy transfer spending to fill the gap caused by constant management changes, Spurs are not one of them. Not only do we have fans with financial delusions we have fans with delusions of grandeur. What you want and what you will get will be very different, ask fans of Arsenal, and once again I remind people of Leeds, in the champions league quarter finals, recent Top division dominance that was 1975 that's 44 years ago and they have languished in the lower divisions ever since. You don't think that can happen at Spurs? In 1991 when Alan Sugar took over the club we were close to bankruptcy. That's 29 years ago so of course we have many fans that are younger than that and I suspect they will be the ones calling for the managers head. Maybe you need to have a look at what happened before you born. One of the mantras of today is 'We Need To Learn Lessons' It always grates when I hear this glib phrase because Humans seldom learn because each generation tends to think it knows best and few of them bother to even find out what happened before because history is boring.

Sorry Spurf, forgot I can't give my opinions on a footballing website created for footballing debate and... Well opinion.

Of course, I should definitely look at history as a means to judge football on today's game because that makes complete sense doens't it?

It's probably best for you to put me on ignore, you tend to disagree with everything I say and seemingly work yourself up about it to the point where you make accusations against my character, the obsession is rather strange but it's probably doing you no good. Equally you're welcome to ban me from the board if it's easier for you.

 

[Spurf]

Sorry Spurf, forgot I can't give my opinions on a footballing website created for footballing debate and... Well opinion.

Of course, I should definitely look at history as a means to judge football on today's game because that makes complete sense doens't it?

It's probably best for you to put me on ignore, you tend to disagree with everything I say and seemingly work yourself up about it to the point where you make accusations against my character, the obsession is rather strange but it's probably doing you no good. Equally you're welcome to ban me from the board if it's easier for you.

Oh wow! that's way over the top DH. Surely the point is that if you give opinions others who disagree will challenge them. That's what I have done. I'm sorry if you think it's a personal attack it's not meant to be. Sure I have disagreed a lot with your comments recently and I take you up on them because I respect your views on football in general and I'm sure if you look back at the history (AGAIN) you will see that more often than not we have been on the same side of the argument. It's because of that I make the case to you, now that you have left the support of Pochettino and adopted a difference stance. You are a well respected member of this forum which as you rightly say is for debate. I am debating.

 

[Spurf]

Looking back at my comment you could construe what I have said with regard to arrogance or lack of understanding as a personal attack and if you think it is I will withdraw it. I can also stand down as a moderator if people think I have over stepped the mark.

 

[Dier Hard]

Oh wow! that's way over the top DH. Surely the point is that if you give opinions others who disagree will challenge them. That's what I have done. I'm sorry if you think it's a personal attack it's not meant to be. Sure I have disagreed a lot with your comments recently and I take you up on them because I respect your views on football in general and I'm sure if you look back at the history (AGAIN) you will see that more often than not we have been on the same side of the argument. It's because of that I make the case to you, now that you have left the support of Pochettino and adopted a difference stance. You are a well respected member of this forum which as you rightly say is for debate. I am debating.

I have no issues with people disagreeing with me, Spurf. But you've had a tendency of late to attack my character, even in your last post, you've said I have a high opinion of myself, I'm either arrogant or lack understanding - which let's be honest, is basically accusing me of being thick - that's not debating anything to do with football. I have many debates and disagreements on here, right now HBIC and I are disagreeing on another thread and even throwing sarcasm into the mix but neither are attacking one another's character, ironically enough HBIC and I tend to agree on most things so it's a good little back and forth game, and as you've mentioned that in the past you and I have generally been on the same side of the coin but it just seems of late, everything I tend to say, whether it's about Spurs/ Poch/ Players seemingly gets nitpicked and often things are said about me moreso than my actual point. If I've offended you in the past and that's part of the reasons why then I can only apologise, I know I can be dry-humoured and sarcastic which may rub people up the wrong way.

I appreciate you're still very much behind Poch, I'd say the majority of the board still is, so will naturally disagree with my views and that's completely fine, I'm more than understanding of that. For what it's worth he's been my favourite manager for years and that won't change but I'm just of the opinion that with many managers at many different clubs, things tend to go stale and then go wrong, even after periods of great success and I think we're at that stage for Poch, if he turns it around then great, I'll happily eat humble pie.

 

[Spurlock]

It's interesting that you mention Mourinho and Wenger because both clubs they left have gone backwards which is where Spurs would probably go if we get rid of Pochettino. I wonder if you spend too much time looking at stats and you have too high an opinion of your own opinions. Is it arrogance or lack of understanding that makes you think you know better than Pochettino? It's a good job we don't apply the same logic to hospitals. There are only four possibly five clubs in the PL who can afford to change their manager and rely on heavy transfer spending to fill the gap caused by constant management changes, Spurs are not one of them. Not only do we have fans with financial delusions we have fans with delusions of grandeur. What you want and what you will get will be very different, ask fans of Arsenal, and once again I remind people of Leeds, in the champions league quarter finals, recent Top division dominance that was 1975 that's 44 years ago and they have languished in the lower divisions ever since. You don't think that can happen at Spurs? In 1991 when Alan Sugar took over the club we were close to bankruptcy. That's 29 years ago so of course we have many fans that are younger than that and I suspect they will be the ones calling for the managers head. Maybe you need to have a look at what happened before you born. One of the mantras of today is 'We Need To Learn Lessons' It always grates when I hear this glib phrase because Humans seldom learn because each generation tends to think it knows best and few of them bother to even find out what happened before because history is boring.

The gone backwards myth to bismirch Mourinho

Both Madrid and Chelsea have won numerous trophies since he left them

Since Fergie left United, they have won 3 trophies. 2 with Jose. United's highest finish in the league since Fergie retired was 2nd and that was also under Jose. He has been United's most successful manager since Fergie.

 

[Dier Hard]

Looking back at my comment you could construe what I have said with regard to arrogance or lack of understanding as a personal attack and if you think it is I will withdraw it. I can also stand down as a moderator if people think I have over stepped the mark.

You're a top mod and very well respected on here, including by myself, so should definitely not stand down.

 

[KingHotspur]

Looking back at my comment you could construe what I have said with regard to arrogance or lack of understanding as a personal attack and if you think it is I will withdraw it. I can also stand down as a moderator if people think I have over stepped the mark.

Don’t be silly mate. The mods on this board are very good and don’t need changing even if you do say I’m too negative all the time

 

[Spurf]

I have no issues with people disagreeing with me, Spurf. But you've had a tendency of late to attack my character, even in your last post, you've said I have a high opinion of myself, I'm either arrogant or lack understanding - which let's be honest, is basically accusing me of being thick - that's not debating anything to do with football. I have many debates and disagreements on here, right now HBIC and I are disagreeing on another thread and even throwing sarcasm into the mix but neither are attacking one another's character, ironically enough HBIC and I tend to agree on most things so it's a good little back and forth game, and as you've mentioned that in the past you and I have generally been on the same side of the coin but it just seems of late, everything I tend to say, whether it's about Spurs/ Poch/ Players seemingly gets nitpicked and often things are said about me moreso than my actual point. If I've offended you in the past and that's part of the reasons why then I can only apologise, I know I can be dry-humoured and sarcastic which may rub people up the wrong way.

I appreciate you're still very much behind Poch, I'd say the majority of the board still is, so will naturally disagree with my views and that's completely fine, I'm more than understanding of that. For what it's worth he's been my favourite manager for years and that won't change but I'm just of the opinion that with many managers at many different clubs, things tend to go stale and then go wrong, even after periods of great success and I think we're at that stage for Poch, if he turns it around then great, I'll happily eat humble pie.

DH You express strong opinions like for example on Winks and equally I have said many times you were the first to point out why we should sign Eriksen and until recently that was a great signing. I think you have an arrogant opinion without being an arrogant person so I was not trying to belittle you as a person but I do take your point on how what I said could be understood or misunderstood therefore will you let me withdraw my comment and apologise to you for making it?

At the same time I think it's important that people feel able to express strong opinions either way but as we have always said personal attack is out of order. Sometimes when you get to know somebody well the lines of restraint get less. I think maybe I have behaved in that way as many posters on here have 'known' each other for many years now. You start to relax and use insulting language that you would not use with a stranger. It does not always work in cold hard print.

 

[Spurf]

The gone backwards myth to bismirch Mourinho

Both Madrid and Chelsea have won numerous trophies since he left them

Since Fergie left United, they have won 3 trophies. 2 with Jose. United's highest finish in the league since Fergie retired was 2nd and that was also under Jose. He has been United's most successful manager since Fergie.

Madrid & Chelsea rely on big spending as I said. We can't/won't do that.
Spurlock I am saying that United are worse off since Mourinho left. Fergie leaving has had the same effect as when Busby left United It takes years to find another manager at the same level. It's taken us years to replace Burkinshaw as it took years to replace Nicholson it could take years to replace Pochettino.

 

[Dier Hard]

DH You express strong opinions like for example on Winks and equally I have said many times you were the first to point out why we should sign Eriksen and until recently that was a great signing. I think you have an arrogant opinion without being an arrogant person so I was not trying to belittle you as a person but I do take your point on how what I said could be understood or misunderstood therefore will you let me withdraw my comment and apologise to you for making it?

At the same time I think it's important that people feel able to express strong opinions either way but as we have always said personal attack is out of order. Sometimes when you get to know somebody well the lines of restraint get less. I think maybe I have behaved in that way as many posters on here have 'known' each other for many years now. You start to relax and use insulting language that you would not use with a stranger. It does not always work in cold hard print.

It was a joint effort with Roo RE Eriksen to be fair, we put a lot of work in on that! It is a shame how bad he's become though, upsetting too because he's been my favourite player and in my opinion, our best player for about 4 or 5 of the 7 seasons he's been here.

As for Winks, I've probably pissed 95% of the board off with my views but what I will say, a few are starting to agree/ partially agree so I'm claiming a small victory there.

Of course I accept the apology .

For sure, many of us have known one another for years on here and I think it's clear we all enjoy banter but I do think - even as you've pointed out with regards to your withdrawal - that perhaps calling someone/ someone's views arrogant or having a high opinion of theirselves is not really seen as your typical 'banter' and seems to have a more serious undertone too it, but anyway, water under the bridge , let's move on