Off Topic Politics Thread

[Ian Thumwood]

I think that tomorrow will be fascinating. I am convinced that the sensible MPs in parliament will overrule Boris. The statement outside NO. 10 was quite fascinating this evening because Boris appeared to have lost his bravura for once. Oddly, I feel that he would have succeeded had he not decided to prorogue parliament and this action will, in my opinion, prove his undoing. You can sense that the country is turning against him and the general feel of the people across the country against this measure will give MPs confidence to go against him. The threat to deselect MPs only illustrates how little confidence he has.

I actually think that there will be a very strange scenario played out. By gut feeling is that the votes against Boris tomorrow will be far more extensive than most people predict. He will be forced to call an election and I honestly believe that the populace will turn against him. The honeymoon period is over and I feel that the public will not tolerate his lack of respect for democracy. Regardless of people's position on Brexit, the whole issue of the referendum was on the basis of who ultimately governed the country and how it reflected the will of the people. I can understand that Corbyn is not everyone's cup of tea yet I can see many right-minded people being off-put by Boris's antics and think that Labour will get in by a healthy majority. The actions of Johnson are those of a dictator and the people of the UK will not stand for someone who wishes to by-pass parliament. As things stand, the EU is the model of democracy in comparison with the actions of the PM. I just feel the proroguing issue is a watershed moment and the Brexiters have now lost the momentum. Despite his politics , I am sure that many politicians in the Conservative party have seem Boris's mettle and they do not like what they see. Corbyn may be a less un-palatable option. I can see tomorrow being the start of the end-game for Boris and the ultimate recalibration of the Conservatives.

 

[Brinkworth Saint]

Watched that to waffling gobshite trying to deflect from the main item. Spending budgets have no relevance until this current exit crisis is resolved. Parliament should be be in constant session to resolve this.

It has had 2 plus years to solve this mess and failed, no point in continuing the debate without an end in sight. Johnson’s popularity (or lack of!) with the public is down to this, agree or disagree he at least is trying to bring about s conclusion and get something done, this because Parliament has missed opportunity after opportunity to resolve this months ago. You may disagree but I’d rather we bring about a way out of Parliamentary deadlock, I’m totally exasperated by those who ‘respect the referendum result’ doing everything they can to oppose it. I voted remain but staying in the kind of useless, prevaricating and endless debate is wasting too much government time and preventing the development and implementation of much needed policies which can bring about a better outcome for many who need our help and support. Not a popular view I know but that’s mine.

 

[Ian Thumwood]

It was the young that lost it for us as they were too ****ing lazy to get out of bed and vote. Everyone in my family voted to remain. It is what you do if you have a brain.

I totally agree. The referendum result still staggers me because I have only ever encountered a handful of people who voted for Brexit. Of those, three are work colleagues whereas at my last company everyone was for remain. None of my friends voted for Brexit and I have yet to read or hear a viable argument as to why we would be better off outside the EU. My only argument is that EU membership could jeopardise nationalisation but I am sure this could be overcome. Otherwise, there is no logic whatsoever.

 

[I Sorry I Ruined The Party]

Oi! Not all us old ****ers want to leave I'm on the streets soon fighting this load of bollocks.

Then eat healthy and exercise, because we need you alive as long as possible.

No seriously, the Brexiter types are not going to change their minds. Even if somehow a no deal exit is avoided, they’ll just get even more desperate and less reasonable.

You presumably value such things as Democracy, honesty, decency and facts. They don’t. They just want to win. Their lack of morality and shame is their most powerful weapon.

We can either go down to their level and renounce our principles, or we can take the high road and wait for them to die. Those are the only two choices.

 

[Ian Thumwood]

It has had 2 plus years to solve this mess and failed, no point in continuing the debate without an end in sight. Johnson’s popularity (or lack of!) with the public is down to this, agree or disagree he at least is trying to bring about s conclusion and get something done, this because Parliament has missed opportunity after opportunity to resolve this months ago. You may disagree but I’d rather we bring about a way out of Parliamentary deadlock, I’m totally exasperated by those who ‘respect the referendum result’ doing everything they can to oppose it. I voted remain but staying in the kind of useless, prevaricating and endless debate is wasting too much government time and preventing the development and implementation of much needed policies which can bring about a better outcome for many who need our help and support. Not a popular view I know but that’s mine.

Parliament is made up of people who are more informed than the general public. If the MPS are reluctant to push through Brexit to reflect the referendum then I would tend to respect their position. It will be a catastrophy. The pbulic will ill informed and the media was guilty of not scruntinising the likes of Johnson and Farage sufficiently at the time.

I would love to see the media approach the Brexiters ( if we ultimately leave) and ask them, when things go wrong, do they feel culpable? If we crash out without a deal and there is mass unemployment , Farage and his ilk need to be held to account. I believe they should be fully answerable for the outcome and not permitted to avoid the question. i would like to see these politicians confronted and doorstepped just as Ian Bone did with Jacob Rees-Mogg a few months back. Their lives should be made a miserable as possible. Get the people to protest in their houses, harrass their families and ensure that they are intimidated for the rest of their lives so that they are made not worth living. So far, the likes of Cameron have got off scot free but Farage, Rees-Mogg and Johnson should have their feet held to the fire. If things go badly wrong, these people should never be allowed to forget and must be treated as pariahs. Drag them through the courts and let them be subjected to civil legal cases. If they can be proved to have been knowingly dishonest, pursue them through the criminal courts. Hopefully this will engender a fairer and more decent style of politics.

 

[Brinkworth Saint]

Parliament is made up of people who are more informed than the general public. If the MPS are reluctant to push through Brexit to reflect the referendum then I would tend to respect their position. It will be a catastrophy. The pbulic will ill informed and the media was guilty of not scruntinising the likes of Johnson and Farage sufficiently at the time.

I would love to see the media approach the Brexiters ( if we ultimately leave) and ask them, when things go wrong, do they feel culpable? If we crash out without a deal and there is mass unemployment , Farage and his ilk need to be held to account. I believe they should be fully answerable for the outcome and not permitted to avoid the question. i would like to see these politicians confronted and doorstepped just as Ian Bone did with Jacob Rees-Mogg a few months back. Their lives should be made a miserable as possible. Get the people to protest in their houses, harrass their families and ensure that they are intimidated for the rest of their lives so that they are made not worth living. So far, the likes of Cameron have got off scot free but Farage, Rees-Mogg and Johnson should have their feet held to the fire. If things go badly wrong, these people should never be allowed to forget and must be treated as pariahs. Drag them through the courts and let them be subjected to civil legal cases. If they can be proved to have been knowingly dishonest, pursue them through the criminal courts. Hopefully this will engender a fairer and more decent style of politics.

I’m in agreement with your last paragraph. I would add that both sides either misinformed or misled us in the big debate prior to the referendum and whilst I appreciate your use of the word ‘if’ it remains to be seen what will happen. My main thrust is Johnson (didn’t vote for him, I went for Hunt) is right to push hard now for an end to this era of ruinous debate. Then we can get the work again on the points you eloquently put in your final comments.

 

[TheSecondStain]

It was the young that lost it for us as they were too ****ing lazy to get out of bed and vote. Everyone in my family voted to remain. It is what you do if you have a brain.

I'm afraid the data suggests that, of those who voted, it was the old and poorly educated who voted Leave. I'm generalising, of course because there were exceptions to that trend - like yourself and your family Godders. The young didn't get out of bed and vote because, as a generation, they haven't seen anything in democracy that represents their needs. I speak to young people and they have felt totally disenfranchised by politics over the last decade. Of course, they've woken up now. But I don't hold them totally accountable for the Brexit result. A pro-Remain result should never have been in doubt.

 

[StJabbo1]

I’m in agreement with your last paragraph. I would add that both sides either misinformed or misled us in the big debate prior to the referendum and whilst I appreciate your use of the word ‘if’ it remains to be seen what will happen. My main thrust is Johnson (didn’t vote for him, I went for Hunt) is right to push hard now for an end to this era of ruinous debate. Then we can get the work again on the points you eloquently put in your final comments.

The fraudulent leave campaign out lied the remain by some distance in my view. The Cambridge Analytica illegal activities exposed in the Great Hack (still under investigation by the NCA) and Aaron Banks's murky roubles make another referendum a democratic nesseccity. Include to the fact that many leave voters have died others changed their minds add the new batch of young people and a motivated overseas group then I believe a remain win would result.

 

[TheSecondStain]

The fraudulent leave campaign out lied the remain by some distance in my view. The Cambridge Analytica illegal activities exposed in the Great Hack (still under investigation by the NCA) and Aaron Banks's murky roubles make another referendum a democratic nesseccity. Include to the fact that many leave voters have died others changed their minds add the new batch of young people and a motivated overseas group then I believe a remain win would result.

Absolutely.

 

[fatletiss]

I'm afraid the data suggests that, of those who voted, it was the old and poorly educated who voted Leave. I'm generalising, of course because there were exceptions to that trend - like yourself and your family Godders. The young didn't get out of bed and vote because, as a generation, they haven't seen anything in democracy that represents their needs. I speak to young people and they have felt totally disenfranchised by politics over the last decade. Of course, they've woken up now. But I don't hold them totally accountable for the Brexit result. A pro-Remain result should never have been in doubt.

It’s not just the young who feel totally disenfranchised with politics.

 

[fatletiss]

The referendum result still staggers me because I have only ever encountered a handful of people who voted for Brexit. Of those, three are work colleagues whereas at my last company everyone was for remain. None of my friends voted for Brexit and I have yet to read or hear a viable argument as to why we would be better off outside the EU.

. You can sense that the country is turning against him and the general feel of the people across the country against this measure will give MPs confidence to go against him.

How can you sense the country is turning against him? I’m not sure how you can suddenly feel that, especially when reading later the first part above, that the referendum result staggered you because you hardly met anyone that voted Brexit.

Sounds like your making assumptions based on your own views and that of the people around you, who are like minded to you. I know lots of people who voted Brexit and lots of people who believe Boris is the right man to lead us out of this. I don’t and I find it tough to have discussions with them on this topic, but they are out there in numbers. Look out how successful Farage has been. People buy this ****.

For the record, I hope you are right, but I just observed these two extracts from your posts and found them a little naive.

 

[Archers Road]

How can you sense the country is turning against him? I’m not sure how you can suddenly feel that, especially when reading later the first part above, that the referendum result staggered you because you hardly met anyone that voted Brexit.

Sounds like your making assumptions based on your own views and that of the people around you, who are like minded to you. I know lots of people who voted Brexit and lots of people who believe Boris is the right man to lead us out of this. I don’t and I find it tough to have discussions with them on this topic, but they are out there in numbers. Look out how successful Farage has been. People buy this ****.

For the record, I hope you are right, but I just observed these two extracts from your posts and found them a little naive.

Probably depends to a large extent on where you live. In London you don't hear many vociferous Brexit supporters. I'm sure there are people who still believe in Leave, but they don't tend to admit it in public too often.

 

[ChilcoSaint]

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[StJabbo1]

Spaffer Johnson not fit for purpose, he's Dominatrix Cummings poodle.

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[One of yer Norvern Saints]

The poster who comments that he hasn't met brexiteers makes me think people need to get out more!

I have brexit voters in my extended family and among some friends. What I find totally depressing is their inability to recognise that there may be a problem or two with leaving the EU. Talking to one yesterday and made the comment that I want to ensure I'm not on mainland Europe come 31 October and intend to be at home. "Why?" she asked. "It'll all be something of nothing."

What? I've heard the argument so often that nothing will change post-Brexit from exponents of Brexit it makes me wonder why they think it's a good thing. If you watched the Channel 4 debate last night, you will have seen no-deal opponents being heckled for quoting the Government's own warnings about possible problems. Sensible debate was ill before the referendum. It is now on life support and the Johnson is about to pull the plug

 

[TheSecondStain]

It’s not just the young who feel totally disenfranchised with politics.

No, I know. I might as well include myself for all the representation I've had through my resident Tory MP down through the years.

 

[One of yer Norvern Saints]

The problem is not enough people critically think.

I'm not 100% sold on this, but if true it's because we have developed an education system that focuses on things that can be measured and then these become valued. Teachers of English used to be in the forefront of crap detection, but must now ensure that the requisite number of adverbial phrases have been deployed. Thatcher started the rot, Blair continued it and Cameron escalated it.

Now the cynic in me thinks it's because governments don't want a populace capable of critical analysis, but that must be wrong, mustn't it?

 

[Brinkworth Saint]

How can you sense the country is turning against him? I’m not sure how you can suddenly feel that, especially when reading later the first part above, that the referendum result staggered you because you hardly met anyone that voted Brexit.

Sounds like your making assumptions based on your own views and that of the people around you, who are like minded to you. I know lots of people who voted Brexit and lots of people who believe Boris is the right man to lead us out of this. I don’t and I find it tough to have discussions with them on this topic, but they are out there in numbers. Look out how successful Farage has been. People buy this ****.

For the record, I hope you are right, but I just observed these two extracts from your posts and found them a little naive.

I totally agree with your view that there are more leavers than many on here think. It’s easy to assume from a limited sample such as this message board what is actually the case. Also the point of old people dying makes it easier for a remain vote to prevail is a fantasy in my view. There is perhaps another group that is growing fast, ‘let’s get this over one way or the other’ group and Johnson right or wrong in anyone’s opinion is making things happen to bring this to a conclusion. Those who beg for a ‘second go’ need to be careful what they wish for as it is by no means certain that a definitive result will come about. Neither is a general election a guarantee of a clear outcome. That’s why I back the current direction as I do not believe any more delay will get us a better outcome.

 

[StJabbo1]

I totally agree with your view that there are more leavers than many on here think. It’s easy to assume from a limited sample such as this message board what is actually the case. Also the point of old people dying makes it easier for a remain vote to prevail is a fantasy in my view. There is perhaps another group that is growing fast, ‘let’s get this over one way or the other’ group and Johnson right or wrong in anyone’s opinion is making things happen to bring this to a conclusion. Those who beg for a ‘second go’ need to be careful what they wish for as it is by no means certain that a definitive result will come about. Neither is a general election a guarantee of a clear outcome. That’s why I back the current direction as I do not believe any more delay will get us a better outcome.

So you are advocating leaving without a deal? Regarded by a large majority of informed opinion to be disastrous for individuals, families and the country as a whole. The failing £ is some clue surely.
You argue the old dying is a fantasy as far as changing the remain vote is concerned. I disagree and add the new young voters and the motivated overseas which you've excluded from your argument.
Do I detect fear in the remain camp? If you're all so sure of a leave majority let's have a new referendum after extending the brexit date and a general election to hopefully remove the Cummings puppet Johnson. Enough money has been spaffed up the no deal wall.

 

[TheSecondStain]

I'm not 100% sold on this, but if true it's because we have developed an education system that focuses on things that can be measured and then these become valued. Teachers of English used to be in the forefront of crap detection, but must now ensure that the requisite number of adverbial phrases have been deployed. Thatcher started the rot, Blair continued it and Cameron escalated it.

Now the cynic in me thinks it's because governments don't want a populace capable of critical analysis, but that must be wrong, mustn't it?

Early basic schooling teaches subjects, amongst which a grasp of numbers, words and basic concepts hopefully becomes apparent. It is only when the pupil reaches university level that rational logical thought, reasoning and critical analysis are openly encouraged. So if you want a thrifty useful workforce which will keep its head down, keep them out of Uni. If you want a workforce that can think independently for itself and challenge the accepted norms, then encourage them to go to Uni.
Thing is, in my opinion, I believe that a significant proportion of University places are just sophisticated schooling. The graduates don't emerge thinking independently and rationally. Instead they become better educated unemployed people with a ****load of debt to motivate them to work.

I feel that it's way past time for a major overhaul of education. The Victorian enhanced model hasn't been suitable for the last 15-20 years or so. We don't need anything like as many of the subjects that are taught. Apart from teaching number and concept understanding and manipulation, and several basic languages, I would spend the rest of the time on studying rational and creative thought processes, and play. Also, if your 'curriculum' is geared to encourage curiosity, confidence and open minded thinking you are going to get a much more rounded person. Pupils can become masters of critical vocations because they want to, not because they are shoehorned into doing so. Besides which, in decades to come the concept of work is going to undergo a major change anyway. So it might be an idea to learn how to think. Because there could be plenty of time for it.