Off Topic The Politics Thread

[sb_73]

Great-great-grandfather WestWindsR probably undercut the local jewellers in the east end though they’d all come from the same village in Poland so it’s fine.

Some of my (wholly English, actually 100% London) ancestors were silversmiths in Clerkenwell/Little Britain, so they probably wandered out East and put a brick through your GG Grandads window for light entertainment. **** competition.

 

[DT’s Socks]

There have been upteen predictions of doom and gloom since we voted to leave.
Many, like the head of the bank of England said our economy would crash and burn immediately after the vote.
He has back tracked now, as have many others, as the economy became stronger.

Maybe the doom mongers are wrong again eh?

So we have not just gone through a complete mess then and still nothing resolved ?

That has already done massive damage imo
Billions lost and the cost of Brexit still rising

Plenty of time for the economy to really downturn

 

[sb_73]

Heard the key points from the tallest dwarf debate.

Johnson seems prepared to contract out appointment of ambassadors to Donald Trump. As an aside the policy for appointment of ambassadors, who were always long serving Foreign Service professionals, has been changed so that ‘businessmen’ can be appointed to the juicy, glamorous jobs, on higher salaries than those who have devoted their careers to becoming a proper diplomat. More grace and favour appointments, just like the US approach where these are political appointments to reward mates. ****ing disaster.

Also he will not rule out proroguing Parliament if he can not convince MPs to support his Brexit strategy by 31 October. Last person to prorogue Parliament was Charles I, and we sorted that one out with a Civil War. It will also put the Queen in an impossible position, she will be obliged to accept the advice of her First Minister (to decline to would destroy the foundations of constitutional monarchy) which will put her at odds with the people’s Elected Representatives. On the wireless just now John Major said that he personally would ask for an immediate judicial review in such circumstances which would presumably put the brakes on the whole thing.

A certain bitter irony in the way forward to achieve our ‘independence’ and ‘sovereignty’ potentially involving overriding sovereignty as embodied by Parliament, which is the only version of sovereignty we have. Surely a general election would be the (sham) democratic way to do it?

 

[brb]

How about recognising that the huge majority of Muslims just try to live their lives like me and you. The poor families that suffered in the atrocity in New Zealand had never hurt anyone. Spouting this ridiculous bile doesn't help anybody. Surely we are all better than that. Hang your head in shame,the world will never get better unless we come together and face up to the hatred that tears us apart.

The post has been removed. That is not an opinion, I just don't need the grief either way.

Thanks Guys,

Admin

 

[brb]

Apologies for interfering on your board

 

[bobmid]

So last nights debate between two idiots can be summed up as follows.
HUNT: We will send real negotiators in to negotiate a deal that cant be renegotiated.

JOHNSON: All you need is optimism and believe.

Sweet

 

[DT’s Socks]

So last nights debate between two idiots can be summed up as follows.
HUNT: We will send real negotiators in to negotiate a deal that cant be renegotiated.

JOHNSON: All you need is optimism and believe.

Sweet

Can’t see how they can negotiate anything
About time people get this out of their heads
We are getting chucked out end of October as I see it as the EU has been nothing but fair and patient
Everyone over here nows it’s a massive mistake but it’s accepted and the EU will make easy meat of any Englishman as I see it

Honestly people are openly laughing at the events in the U.K.

 

[Goldhawk-Road]

.

 

[Goldhawk-Road]

Oh, I get it, you are channeling Anne Widdecombe. Come on, we are like slaves escaping those people who captured us and transported us to America, aren’t we? Or the Jews leaving Babylon after centuries of captivity? Or perhaps the English suffering under the yoke of the EU is best compared to the end of apartheid in South Africa.

I don’t struggle to understand independence, I struggle to understand such a crass comparison to Brexit as the Irish escaping a millennium of occupation.

No, not Widdecombe. Let me give you another comparison. Scotland. The Remainers say, we are probably financially better off in the UK, so why change? The Leavers say, we're a talented country, we'll do well economically, and besides we don't want the Tories governing us, we don't want Boris Johnson to be our prime minister - we want to be independent. You can't knock that argument, even if you can knock some of the political numpties that make up the SNP.

And there's the same element of independence in many EU leavers minds. So I get to feel slightly jaded when I hear the same old Remain argument - we "may" be better off financially in the EU so why leave? Money is important, but it's not the key issue in the minds of many Leavers. And besides, I've yet to hear a worthy economic "expert" come up anything like a view that, after a period of transition, the UK will be damned economically forever. It simply won't.

 

[Stroller]

Kim Darroch, Britain's ambassador to the US, resigns. Effectively sacked by Boris Johnson at Donald Trump's behest.

 

[Staines R's]

The post has been removed. That is not an opinion, I just don't need the grief either way.

Thanks Guys,

Admin

Out of curiosity, did you have any complaints ?

 

[sb_73]

No, not Widdecombe. Let me give you another comparison. Scotland. The Remainers say, we are probably financially better off in the UK, so why change? The Leavers say, we're a talented country, we'll do well economically, and besides we don't want the Tories governing us, we don't want Boris Johnson to be our prime minister - we want to be independent. You can't knock that argument, even if you can knock some of the political numpties that make up the SNP.

And there's the same element of independence in many EU leavers minds. So I get to feel slightly jaded when I hear the same old Remain argument - we "may" be better off financially in the EU so why leave? Money is important, but it's not the key issue in the minds of many Leavers. And besides, I've yet to hear a worthy economic "expert" come up anything like a view that, after a period of transition, the UK will be damned economically forever. It simply won't.

I’m sure there are plenty of valid comparisons. I was rather hoping that you would agree that Ireland isn’t one of them. Norway and Switzerland deciding not to join are probably more apt.

Make your mind up - is the economic impact of Brexit important or not? On the one hand you say no, it’s all about independence, on the other, a couple of sentences later, you say we’ll be fine anyway. One thing I am absolutely certain of is that, if things are rocky economically after we leave many on your side of the fence won’t attribute that to the fact of Brexit, vindictive actions by the EU and the enemy within will be blamed.

Stainsey is an English Leaver, but he doesn’t want the Tories or Johnson governing him, what are his options? Do you speak for him as well? He was making an anti immigration argument earlier, where does that stand in the pecking order of reasons to leave?

From very early in this gargantuan thread I’ve said that Col’s position, leave to regain sovereignty, is the only coherent leave argument. The fact that I think that sovereignty is purely illusory in today’s world is beside the point. So I am not surprised you are now majoring on this argument, it’s the best one you have. It’s weakened with comparisons to very different struggles.




Elsewhere, for those who may think that the fears of the protesters in Hong Kong are exaggerated, yesterday a plane carrying Chinese police landed in Vanuatu, an independent, sovereign state in the South Pacific. Without any warning or discussion with local authorities, any arrest warrants or other paperwork, the Chinese police found and detained 6 people, at least four of whom (although ethnic Chinese) are citizens of Vanuatu. They had been held, on the premises of a Chinese company, for 4 days without any kind of charge, local, Chinese or international, being made against them. They were put on the plane and flown out, to China, where I doubt we will ever hear of them again. When the CIA do this it’s called extraordinary rendition.

 

[Staines R's]

Stainsey is an English Leaver, but he doesn’t want the Tories or Johnson governing him, what are his options? Do you speak for him as well? He was making an anti immigration argument earlier, where does that stand in the pecking order of reasons to leave?.

Eh G. I wouldn’t say I was being ‘anti-immigration’ per se. Was just stating fact that if you have an influx of foreign workers into any country that are ripe for exploitation by their employers, and work for a lower wage...then it will bring down the wage of ‘’local’ workers.

I know some thought it ‘crap’ but seems from other posts on here, there is some truth to what I said.

 

[Goldhawk-Road]

I’m sure there are plenty of valid comparisons. I was rather hoping that you would agree that Ireland isn’t one of them. Norway and Switzerland deciding not to join are probably more apt.

Make your mind up - is the economic impact of Brexit important or not? On the one hand you say no, it’s all about independence, on the other, a couple of sentences later, you say we’ll be fine anyway. One thing I am absolutely certain of is that, if things are rocky economically after we leave many on your side of the fence won’t attribute that to the fact of Brexit, vindictive actions by the EU and the enemy within will be blamed.

Stainsey is an English Leaver, but he doesn’t want the Tories or Johnson governing him, what are his options? Do you speak for him as well? He was making an anti immigration argument earlier, where does that stand in the pecking order of reasons to leave?

From very early in this gargantuan thread I’ve said that Col’s position, leave to regain sovereignty, is the only coherent leave argument. The fact that I think that sovereignty is purely illusory in today’s world is beside the point. So I am not surprised you are now majoring on this argument, it’s the best one you have. It’s weakened with comparisons to very different struggles.




Elsewhere, for those who may think that the fears of the protesters in Hong Kong are exaggerated, yesterday a plane carrying Chinese police landed in Vanuatu, an independent, sovereign state in the South Pacific. Without any warning or discussion with local authorities, any arrest warrants or other paperwork, the Chinese police found and detained 6 people, at least four of whom (although ethnic Chinese) are citizens of Vanuatu. They had been held, on the premises of a Chinese company, for 4 days without any kind of charge, local, Chinese or international, being made against them. They were put on the plane and flown out, to China, where I doubt we will ever hear of them again. When the CIA do this it’s called extraordinary rendition.

Ireland - is clearly immensely complex, but independence was the common theme.

I don't agree Norway is an apt comparison. Norwegian politicians have given away a great deal of independence by allowing their country to be in the Single Market.

Economic impact of staying or leaving is important but not of prime importance imo. Independence and carrying out a democratic referendum come before that. As to casting any blame, I'm not a soothsayer like you, Stan.

I can't speak for Stainsy. He can answer for himself whether a return to full independence and parliamentary sovereignty were important to him when he voted in the referendum.

Let me ask - what is the difference in your mind between leaving to regain independence lost to the EU (which you mock) and leaving to regain sovereignty (which apparently you feel is justifiable by Col, although not by you) or do you accept they are effectively one and the same? And do you agree that other Leave arguments flow from this e.g. control over immigration, borders, money, lawmaking?

I ask this, because you imply that I have, in some way, switched arguments. When in fact, Leave arguments are all inter related.

 

[sb_73]

Eh G. I wouldn’t say I was being ‘anti-immigration’ per se. Was just stating fact that if you have an influx of foreign workers into any country that are ripe for exploitation by their employers, and work for a lower wage...then it will bring down the wage of ‘’local’ workers.

I know some thought it ‘crap’ but seems from other posts on here, there is some truth to what I said.

I was taking your name in vain mate, for dramatic effect.

What we need is strong unions and collective bargaining and no tolerance of undercutting agreed rates for agreed trades. Nowt to do with immigration.

Ireland - is clearly immensely complex, but independence was the common theme.

I don't agree Norway is an apt comparison. Norwegian politicians have given away a great deal of independence by allowing their country to be in the Single Market.

Economic impact of staying or leaving is important but not of prime importance imo. Independence and carrying out a democratic referendum come before that. As to casting any blame, I'm not a soothsayer like you, Stan.

I can't speak for Stainsy. He can answer for himself whether a return to full independence and parliamentary sovereignty were important to him when he voted in the referendum.

Let me ask - what is the difference in your mind between leaving to regain independence lost to the EU (which you mock) and leaving to regain sovereignty (which apparently you feel is justifiable by Col, although not by you) or do you accept they are effectively one and the same? And do you agree that other Leave arguments flow from this e.g. control over immigration, borders, money, lawmaking?

I ask this, because you imply that I have, in some way, switched arguments. When in fact, Leave arguments are all inter related.

There is no difference between the ‘independence’ argument and the ‘sovereignty’ argument, which is why I said it’s your strongest one. But the only true, complete, sovereignty is one which operates in isolation, no treaties, trade or otherwise, with other countries - a treaty is a mechanism to share sovereignty on certain issues, the members of the EU have agreed to share sovereignty over a wider range of things, voluntarily. Any future trade agreements involve voluntarily surrendering unilateral control over the things covered by the treaty.

The things which you think will flow from no longer sharing sovereignty with the EU are largely in our control anyway - most immigration is non EU, and we failed to use the tools available to restrict EU immigration when they were relevant; we are not in Schengen, everybody has to go through border control (the process is exactly the same for me if I am flying back from the US or France) except in Ireland which never had a trade border, only a security one which the peace process rendered unnecessary; we have our own currency, with no compulsion to join the Euro, we set our own interest and tax rates, what will change with money? Lawmaking is admittedly more complex, but I reckon only a tiny minority of our laws and the way they are implemented are directly affected by our membership of the EU. Certainly the basis of our legal system - common law - remains very different to the Napoleonic Codes of many EU countries. Appeals mechanisms on certain things may be more influenced by Europe, whether it’s the EU or European Court of Human Rights, which is nothing to do with the EU.

Parliament already has most of what is called sovereignty in this country. It might get a bit more, but I can’t see this changing anyone’s life for the better, unless it is purely the principle of the thing which bothers them*Doesn’t bother me at all, but I can understand the principle of the argument.

* and in that case, why should it be Parliament that is sovereign? Why not something much closer to home that we can participate in more than a vote for someone we have never met every few years? Why on Earth would I trust Boris Johnson or Jeremy Corbyn with my sovereignty?

 

[bobmid]

I was taking your name in vain mate, for dramatic effect.

What we need is strong unions and collective bargaining and no tolerance of undercutting agreed rates for agreed trades. Nowt to do with immigration.

There is no difference between the ‘independence’ argument and the ‘sovereignty’ argument, which is why I said it’s your strongest one. But the only true, complete, sovereignty is one which operates in isolation, no treaties, trade or otherwise, with other countries - a treaty is a mechanism to share sovereignty on certain issues, the members of the EU have agreed to share sovereignty over a wider range of things, voluntarily. Any future trade agreements involve voluntarily surrendering unilateral control over the things covered by the treaty.

The things which you think will flow from no longer sharing sovereignty with the EU are largely in our control anyway - most immigration is non EU, and we failed to use the tools available to restrict EU immigration when they were relevant; we are not in Schengen, everybody has to go through border control (the process is exactly the same for me if I am flying back from the US or France) except in Ireland which never had a trade border, only a security one which the peace process rendered unnecessary; we have our own currency, with no compulsion to join the Euro, we set our own interest and tax rates, what will change with money? Lawmaking is admittedly more complex, but I reckon only a tiny minority of our laws and the way they are implemented are directly affected by our membership of the EU. Certainly the basis of our legal system - common law - remains very different to the Napoleonic Codes of many EU countries. Appeals mechanisms on certain things may be more influenced by Europe, whether it’s the EU or European Court of Human Rights, which is nothing to do with the EU.

Parliament already has most of what is called sovereignty in this country. It might get a bit more, but I can’t see this changing anyone’s life for the better, unless it is purely the principle of the thing which bothers them*Doesn’t bother me at all, but I can understand the principle of the argument.

* and in that case, why should it be Parliament that is sovereign? Why not something much closer to home that we can participate in more than a vote for someone we have never met every few years? Why on Earth would I trust Boris Johnson or Jeremy Corbyn with my sovereignty?

That's the best post I've read on this thread to date.

 

[Staines R's]

That's the best post I've read on this thread to date.

You obviously don’t read mine then Bob

 

[Goldhawk-Road]

I was taking your name in vain mate, for dramatic effect.

What we need is strong unions and collective bargaining and no tolerance of undercutting agreed rates for agreed trades. Nowt to do with immigration.

There is no difference between the ‘independence’ argument and the ‘sovereignty’ argument, which is why I said it’s your strongest one. But the only true, complete, sovereignty is one which operates in isolation, no treaties, trade or otherwise, with other countries - a treaty is a mechanism to share sovereignty on certain issues, the members of the EU have agreed to share sovereignty over a wider range of things, voluntarily. Any future trade agreements involve voluntarily surrendering unilateral control over the things covered by the treaty.

The things which you think will flow from no longer sharing sovereignty with the EU are largely in our control anyway - most immigration is non EU, and we failed to use the tools available to restrict EU immigration when they were relevant; we are not in Schengen, everybody has to go through border control (the process is exactly the same for me if I am flying back from the US or France) except in Ireland which never had a trade border, only a security one which the peace process rendered unnecessary; we have our own currency, with no compulsion to join the Euro, we set our own interest and tax rates, what will change with money? Lawmaking is admittedly more complex, but I reckon only a tiny minority of our laws and the way they are implemented are directly affected by our membership of the EU. Certainly the basis of our legal system - common law - remains very different to the Napoleonic Codes of many EU countries. Appeals mechanisms on certain things may be more influenced by Europe, whether it’s the EU or European Court of Human Rights, which is nothing to do with the EU.

Parliament already has most of what is called sovereignty in this country. It might get a bit more, but I can’t see this changing anyone’s life for the better, unless it is purely the principle of the thing which bothers them*Doesn’t bother me at all, but I can understand the principle of the argument.

* and in that case, why should it be Parliament that is sovereign? Why not something much closer to home that we can participate in more than a vote for someone we have never met every few years? Why on Earth would I trust Boris Johnson or Jeremy Corbyn with my sovereignty?

I'd simply say that a country maintains sovereignty when entering free trade agreements, because the ability to agree terms with a third party derives from sovereignty and there is no necessary derogation merely because you abide by the terms - so long as the sovereign country can pull out unilaterally pursuant to the termination terms under the agreement. This is why the backstop was so controversial. The UK did not have that unilateral right.

There wasn't much difference between EU and non-EU immigration before 2016 - Non-EU was slightly higher. It includes large numbers of students here to study. Since the referendum, EU immigration has gone down. It will be interesting to see whether Boris brings in the Australian points system after Brexit.

Money - there's lots of dispute over this, but what is clear is that the UK pays net about £8-9 billion per year. This will be a saving.

I think after what we've seen from Parliament over the last 3 years, there is a case for reform. As to what, my mind is wide open.

 

[DT’s Socks]

Ireland - is clearly immensely complex, but independence was the common theme.

I don't agree Norway is an apt comparison. Norwegian politicians have given away a great deal of independence by allowing their country to be in the Single Market.

Economic impact of staying or leaving is important but not of prime importance imo. Independence and carrying out a democratic referendum come before that. As to casting any blame, I'm not a soothsayer like you, Stan.

I can't speak for Stainsy. He can answer for himself whether a return to full independence and parliamentary sovereignty were important to him when he voted in the referendum.

Let me ask - what is the difference in your mind between leaving to regain independence lost to the EU (which you mock) and leaving to regain sovereignty (which apparently you feel is justifiable by Col, although not by you) or do you accept they are effectively one and the same? And do you agree that other Leave arguments flow from this e.g. control over immigration, borders, money, lawmaking?

I ask this, because you imply that I have, in some way, switched arguments. When in fact, Leave arguments are all inter related.

Staines was paid to vote Brexit
He signed up

 

[DT’s Socks]

I was taking your name in vain mate, for dramatic effect.

What we need is strong unions and collective bargaining and no tolerance of undercutting agreed rates for agreed trades. Nowt to do with immigration.

There is no difference between the ‘independence’ argument and the ‘sovereignty’ argument, which is why I said it’s your strongest one. But the only true, complete, sovereignty is one which operates in isolation, no treaties, trade or otherwise, with other countries - a treaty is a mechanism to share sovereignty on certain issues, the members of the EU have agreed to share sovereignty over a wider range of things, voluntarily. Any future trade agreements involve voluntarily surrendering unilateral control over the things covered by the treaty.

The things which you think will flow from no longer sharing sovereignty with the EU are largely in our control anyway - most immigration is non EU, and we failed to use the tools available to restrict EU immigration when they were relevant; we are not in Schengen, everybody has to go through border control (the process is exactly the same for me if I am flying back from the US or France) except in Ireland which never had a trade border, only a security one which the peace process rendered unnecessary; we have our own currency, with no compulsion to join the Euro, we set our own interest and tax rates, what will change with money? Lawmaking is admittedly more complex, but I reckon only a tiny minority of our laws and the way they are implemented are directly affected by our membership of the EU. Certainly the basis of our legal system - common law - remains very different to the Napoleonic Codes of many EU countries. Appeals mechanisms on certain things may be more influenced by Europe, whether it’s the EU or European Court of Human Rights, which is nothing to do with the EU.

Parliament already has most of what is called sovereignty in this country. It might get a bit more, but I can’t see this changing anyone’s life for the better, unless it is purely the principle of the thing which bothers them*Doesn’t bother me at all, but I can understand the principle of the argument.

* and in that case, why should it be Parliament that is sovereign? Why not something much closer to home that we can participate in more than a vote for someone we have never met every few years? Why on Earth would I trust Boris Johnson or Jeremy Corbyn with my sovereignty?

Every Brexit poster on here should be made to read this post 10 times ... the slightly slower ones should try 15

Sovereignty is a wet history dream
We are British come what may but this is 2019 and half the country has been brainwashed with the blame culture ... it’s all of us we made this happen

Some have just noticed the UK ship is sinking

We sold out and got fat easy as that ... now we can’t do anything but complain