Off Topic The Goodhand Arms
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Any EV/Saints enthusiasts here from Eastern Europe? According to EV news outlets, such as Electrek.com, Tesla are going to expand into EE, first Czech Republic, then Ukraine, then others, because they were asked really enthusiastically by Tesla owners who live there but have bought their cars in neighbouring Western European countries.
CEO Elon Musk acknowledged their plea in a tweet (below) and when asked about expansion in Eastern Europe in general in 2020, he said “probably sooner”.
Ok
— Elon Musk (@elonmusk) June 26, 2019
Those pleas to Musk and Tesla have worked before. We [Electrek] have seen similar situations in Iceland and Portugal. At this rate, EM is going to start giving billionnaires a good name.
CEO Elon Musk acknowledged their plea in a tweet (below) and when asked about expansion in Eastern Europe in general in 2020, he said “probably sooner”.
Ok
— Elon Musk (@elonmusk) June 26, 2019
Those pleas to Musk and Tesla have worked before. We [Electrek] have seen similar situations in Iceland and Portugal. At this rate, EM is going to start giving billionnaires a good name.
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If I wasn't sitting near floor level I would have picked myself off it. We have a fleet of Electric buses in,,, Guildford, Surrey. Hey, at least they're in the next county, FFS. I'll link the Electrek article. Worth reading, because we could all end up with this sort of fleet: https://electrek.co/2019/06/26/tesla-powerpacks-charge-electric-buses/
I've an Automatic which has 7 gears.............Around town it rarely gets out of 5th. Most 20 zones it doesn't alter unless going up a steep hill. Most of my town work is done around 1200-1500 rpm anyway. So not sure why cars would use more fuel going through these 20 zones.
As for the Electric Cars granted they are not all that noisy but they do make some noise. Or should I say the few that I've seen do........Not as loud as a petrol engined car certainly and trust me, some petrol cars these days are pretty quiet at low speeds too..........
As for the Electric Cars granted they are not all that noisy but they do make some noise. Or should I say the few that I've seen do........Not as loud as a petrol engined car certainly and trust me, some petrol cars these days are pretty quiet at low speeds too..........
OK. I'll try to explain one last time. Let's leave the confusing area of 30 and 20mph zones and talk about 50mph. The issue is exactly the same just at a different speed. It doesn't matter if your car is manual or automatic. It's the same issue. I'm not going to use arithmetic, so don't sweat it.
So, you're pootling along at 50mph in top gear on a whiff of throttle at say 2,000rpm. You cover one mile on a level road. You use a certain amount of fuel to cover that mile. OK?
You drop down a gear [it doesn't matter why in this explanation]. So you are now going to do the next mile under exactly the same conditions, but in a lower gear. To stay at 50mph your car engine will spin at higher revolutions and use slightly more fuel to keep it there [otherwise it will slow down slightly]. So, higher revs, more fuel, same speed, same time to cover the distance.
If you decide to stay at the same engine revolutions as before, when you were in top gear, in order to consume fuel at the same rate, the car will be travelling at a lower speed because it is in a lower gear. Therefore lower speed, same revs, longer time to cover the distance, more fuel consumed [because you're taking longer to cover the distance].
So that explains why cars consume more fuel, and consequently pollute more, in lower gears, given the same parameters. [the same car will always consume more fuel over the same given distance in a lower gear, even at exactly the same throttle opening - it will therefore pollute more]
Modern cars have taller gear ratio sets and more gears in the set [is that too techy?] than cars of yesteryear. Generally, they develop their peak torque figures higher up the rev range than they used to back then, even diesels due to developments from such people as Markus Liebherr [who he?] In general this makes them more relaxing to drive overall, but with a spirited performance if required, without totally drinking the amber flammable stuff. But it does mean that engines don't like running smoothly or efficiently in top gear at anything less than 30mph. There are exceptions, as mentioned before.
So, in order to accommodate driving smoothly at less than 30mph, say in a 20mph zone, the driver generally has to drop to a lower gear. For the same reasons given above, that results in higher fuel consumption and consequently more pollution.
But there is an additional pollutive element here. Every time the car changes gear [up or down] and takes up the load of the new gear, there is slightly more pollution produced. And every time a car accelerates to a higher speed, fuel is consumed at a higher rate compared to a normal cruising throttle. So more pollution is caused. And, because the car is accelerating, the fuel mixture is temporarily made richer, so even more pollution. You've all seen badly serviced diesels belch a plume of pollutents every time one accelerates? That's an extreme example of the mixture being temporarily rich due to incomplete fuel burning, but even a well tuned car will produce more unburnt fuel when accelerating than when on a cruising throttle.
And fixed gear automatics behave in exactly the same way. When Beddy's 7 speed automatic is in 5th gear, he's consuming more fuel and polluting more, given the same distance. Constantly Variable Transmissions [CVT] do the same thing but they effectively have infinite gears. They are still subject to high points of gearing or low, so the case still holds.
So, you're pootling along at 50mph in top gear on a whiff of throttle at say 2,000rpm. You cover one mile on a level road. You use a certain amount of fuel to cover that mile. OK?
You drop down a gear [it doesn't matter why in this explanation]. So you are now going to do the next mile under exactly the same conditions, but in a lower gear. To stay at 50mph your car engine will spin at higher revolutions and use slightly more fuel to keep it there [otherwise it will slow down slightly]. So, higher revs, more fuel, same speed, same time to cover the distance.
If you decide to stay at the same engine revolutions as before, when you were in top gear, in order to consume fuel at the same rate, the car will be travelling at a lower speed because it is in a lower gear. Therefore lower speed, same revs, longer time to cover the distance, more fuel consumed [because you're taking longer to cover the distance].
So that explains why cars consume more fuel, and consequently pollute more, in lower gears, given the same parameters. [the same car will always consume more fuel over the same given distance in a lower gear, even at exactly the same throttle opening - it will therefore pollute more]
Modern cars have taller gear ratio sets and more gears in the set [is that too techy?] than cars of yesteryear. Generally, they develop their peak torque figures higher up the rev range than they used to back then, even diesels due to developments from such people as Markus Liebherr [who he?] In general this makes them more relaxing to drive overall, but with a spirited performance if required, without totally drinking the amber flammable stuff. But it does mean that engines don't like running smoothly or efficiently in top gear at anything less than 30mph. There are exceptions, as mentioned before.
So, in order to accommodate driving smoothly at less than 30mph, say in a 20mph zone, the driver generally has to drop to a lower gear. For the same reasons given above, that results in higher fuel consumption and consequently more pollution.
But there is an additional pollutive element here. Every time the car changes gear [up or down] and takes up the load of the new gear, there is slightly more pollution produced. And every time a car accelerates to a higher speed, fuel is consumed at a higher rate compared to a normal cruising throttle. So more pollution is caused. And, because the car is accelerating, the fuel mixture is temporarily made richer, so even more pollution. You've all seen badly serviced diesels belch a plume of pollutents every time one accelerates? That's an extreme example of the mixture being temporarily rich due to incomplete fuel burning, but even a well tuned car will produce more unburnt fuel when accelerating than when on a cruising throttle.
And fixed gear automatics behave in exactly the same way. When Beddy's 7 speed automatic is in 5th gear, he's consuming more fuel and polluting more, given the same distance. Constantly Variable Transmissions [CVT] do the same thing but they effectively have infinite gears. They are still subject to high points of gearing or low, so the case still holds.
As I'm waiting to view a rocket launch later this morning, I have time to explain how electric cars get away with one gear only, but first a wee explanation on power figures.
Manufacturers love to tell us about Horse Power. It's what allows a car to maintain high top speeds. However, they speak less about Torque [or Torques plural, if you are as stupid as Jeremy Clarkson]. Torque is always singular. You have a number of horses in horsepower. You have an amount of torque - singular, always. It's torque that sends you whizzing off into the distance at breakneck speed from a standstill, not horsepower. For this explanation we don't need the horsepower part of the performance.
So why do FF cars require 4,5,6,7 or more gears to do what they do? Simply because they produce very little torque at low revs [unless they are very large engines which consume lots of fuel]. So you engage the lowest gear to make it easier on the engine. As the revs rise, the torque gets bigger and bigger until it drops away. Time to change up to the next gear. Do it again, next gear, etc...
But electric motors don't suffer this problem. They produce potential maximum torque from zero revs, and they maintain it right upto their designed limit, with only the slightest tailing off. This means that when you floor the throttle [if you really must] and the electric motor moves a fraction, it is already at full torque, and so you instantly get full power acceleration from nothing. [A quick nod to Nikola Tesla for his genius] This instant jolt of acceleration, that just keeps on coming, produces reactions from smiles to laughing to screams. Some people even feel sick. The fastest acelerating cars produce the more extreme reactions, but generally you get something called the Tesla Smile. And the effect never goes away because electric motors don't go out of tune. Consequently, with all this magnificent Torque from nothing [and yes, they produce horse power too] they don't need multiple gears. Just a single fixed reduction gear to reduce the electric motor revs to road wheel revolutions. Rarely will you will see 2-speed BEVs. Converted FF cars to electric often retain their transmissions and clutches because it's simpler to bolt on the electric motor and fit batteries. But they generally just run in one or two of the gears depending on what's nice and comfy.
Fancy seeing a converted car? This is typical:
Manufacturers love to tell us about Horse Power. It's what allows a car to maintain high top speeds. However, they speak less about Torque [or Torques plural, if you are as stupid as Jeremy Clarkson]. Torque is always singular. You have a number of horses in horsepower. You have an amount of torque - singular, always. It's torque that sends you whizzing off into the distance at breakneck speed from a standstill, not horsepower. For this explanation we don't need the horsepower part of the performance.
So why do FF cars require 4,5,6,7 or more gears to do what they do? Simply because they produce very little torque at low revs [unless they are very large engines which consume lots of fuel]. So you engage the lowest gear to make it easier on the engine. As the revs rise, the torque gets bigger and bigger until it drops away. Time to change up to the next gear. Do it again, next gear, etc...
But electric motors don't suffer this problem. They produce potential maximum torque from zero revs, and they maintain it right upto their designed limit, with only the slightest tailing off. This means that when you floor the throttle [if you really must] and the electric motor moves a fraction, it is already at full torque, and so you instantly get full power acceleration from nothing. [A quick nod to Nikola Tesla for his genius] This instant jolt of acceleration, that just keeps on coming, produces reactions from smiles to laughing to screams. Some people even feel sick. The fastest acelerating cars produce the more extreme reactions, but generally you get something called the Tesla Smile. And the effect never goes away because electric motors don't go out of tune. Consequently, with all this magnificent Torque from nothing [and yes, they produce horse power too] they don't need multiple gears. Just a single fixed reduction gear to reduce the electric motor revs to road wheel revolutions. Rarely will you will see 2-speed BEVs. Converted FF cars to electric often retain their transmissions and clutches because it's simpler to bolt on the electric motor and fit batteries. But they generally just run in one or two of the gears depending on what's nice and comfy.
Fancy seeing a converted car? This is typical:
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As you mentioned me I put your theory to the test this morning...........I changed my dashboard settings so I could read what my fuel rate is as I'm driving. The limits around the 20mph zone are as follows 40mph leading to 30mph leading to 20mph approximately .5 of a mile leading to 30mph In one direction. The 20mph zone is slightly down hill at my first attempt.........I dropped from exactly 30 to 20 my revs dropped and my fuel consumption dropped too. Not by much I grant you but it did drop.
The revs did go up slightly as I Exited the 20 zone as I reached 30...but again not by much. (My normal driving stance) no fast acceleration. On my return journey it was 30 to 20 to 30 my revs did pick up as I went through the 20 zone as it was going slightly up hill. Yes my fuel rate did go up slightly but not by very much. So perhaps it does depend on the gradient as to whether dropping to 20 will use more fuel?. So I tried another experiment..........Near us is a country lane I drove to that and from 30 dropped to 20 (Along the flat bit nobody behind) my fuel gauge flickered down and back to the same as the 30. So I don't know if that supports your argument or disproves it? Pollution........I haven't a clue..........
Edit............. my gear ration did not change by the way although had accelerated faster it might have done.
You’re missing the crucial point that at 20 mph it takes longer to get anywhere than at higher speeds, so overall your fuel consumption goes up.
Humans should have just drawn the line at 900cc Minis, the environment would have been saved.
Someone would have souped it up and gone faster ..... we “feel the need for speed”
Marv's bad joke of the day.
A guy goes into a bar and sees a 12 inch tall guy on the bar playing a piano. The guy says to the barman where did you get him from? The barman replied I was was walking the dog on the beach found a lamp gave it a rub a Genie popped out gave me one wish and here he is. The guy asked What did you do with the lamp? The barman replied I threw it in the long reeds. So the guy goes looking for it and finally found it. A couple of hours later the guy is back at the bar and the barman asks did you find it? The guy replies yes but i think the Genies is deaf because when I asked for a million bucks I was surrounded by a million ducks The barman replied you don't really think I asked for a 12 inch pianist do you?
A guy goes into a bar and sees a 12 inch tall guy on the bar playing a piano. The guy says to the barman where did you get him from? The barman replied I was was walking the dog on the beach found a lamp gave it a rub a Genie popped out gave me one wish and here he is. The guy asked What did you do with the lamp? The barman replied I threw it in the long reeds. So the guy goes looking for it and finally found it. A couple of hours later the guy is back at the bar and the barman asks did you find it? The guy replies yes but i think the Genies is deaf because when I asked for a million bucks I was surrounded by a million ducks The barman replied you don't really think I asked for a 12 inch pianist do you?
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Did anyone see the documentary on TV last night about a tribe of little people that has recently been discovered in Africa that live in the tall grass? Every now and then you can see them jumping up and just about see them looking around. They are called The Wherethef#ckarewe tribe
Here's a weird story from the US...the land of weird stories. A 5 month pregnant woman attacked another woman in Alabama and got shot (killing her baby). The woman who fired the gun was let off because of a plea of self defence (without knowing the full circumstances that could be possible), but the woman who lost her baby has now been charged with murder for being reckless whilst pregnant. She is said to be totally responsible for the death of the baby. Stupid and reckless certainly, but murder! I don't think it is entirely unconnected with her being black, female and this being in Alabama (and I am not a person who jumps to a conclusion about racism). She is probably not a good person and may have been a terrible mother, but this alone isn't necessarily a crime.
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As Chilco says, you missed the essential point. But there are several contributing factors. The original point was that modern engines don't like running at 20mph in top gear, whereas they are usually fine at 30mph. This means that to have them running smoothly again means dropping down a gear. More fuel consumption over the same distance - more pollution. That's the simple fact.
Being an automatic, your car's transmission automatically dropped into a lower gear, instead of staying in top, when you dropped your speed below 30mph. Even you car knows what is better for its smooth running.
One last thing, if you do want to experiment, next time anyone has a spare moment in a manual transmission car with nobody else around, try dropping the speed to 20mph in top gear and see how it copes on a level road. Don't feather the clutch, otherwise you're cheating. Then try accelerating away in the same top gear. Use the lightest throttle possible because, unless you have a sophisticated fly-by-wire throttle, you'll only make things worse if you become heavy footed. If you have any trouble at all drop a gear or two. I don't want people making me responsible for triggering engine troubles.
But surprisingly no better for the environment, according to the odd test or two. Me? I'm halfway through my last purchase - a book
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Isn't it ironic that a book on the environment could be better for the environment if it stayed unpublished???