Off Topic The Politics Thread

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Should the UK remain a part of the EU or leave?

  • Stay in

    Votes: 56 47.9%

  • Get out

    Votes: 61 52.1%
  • Total voters
    117
  • Poll closed .
Stroller said:
Yes, Labour would have to have a much clearer Brexit position when it came to a GE. Assuming a further A50 extension had already been sought and granted, a pragmatic manifesto proposal would be to negotiate further with the EU to get agreement on a Customs Union arrangement (solving the Irish border issue), and then to put this back to the people in a further referendum. This would see Labour as the biggest party in a hung parliament, I would say, and they would be able to form a government with the support of Lib Dems, SNP, Plaid and Greens.

I do actually enjoy this stuff.
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It is oddly fascinating, even though in theory nowadays I shouldn’t give a toss. But it’s become mighty wearing as well. All of the things we could have been doing instead of focusing on this crap.
Goldhawk-Road said:
If Labour comes out for a second referendum, it could lose whole swathes of voters in the North. If it doesn't, it will lose swathes to the Lib Dems.

At this very minute, Jeremy will be trying to calculate, with the aid of Diane Abbot's mathematical skills, which is the biggest swathe to lose
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Haven’t they lost them already to the Brexit Party? But Labour will still win many of those seats with reduced majorities, Farage will win a lot of votes but few if any seats, the joy of first past the post. We know that EU election results aren’t replicated in General Elections, or UKIP would have had some seats other than deserting Tory MPs. If Corbyn can keep some spotlight on stuff other than Brexit, just by trundling out last times manifesto which we know was popular, he might get some traction.
 
sb_73 said:
It is oddly fascinating, even though in theory nowadays I shouldn’t give a toss. But it’s become mighty wearing as well. All of the things we could have been doing instead of focusing on this crap.

Haven’t they lost them already to the Brexit Party? But Labour will still win many of those seats with reduced majorities, Farage will win a lot of votes but few if any seats, the joy of first past the post. We know that EU election results aren’t replicated in General Elections, or UKIP would have had some seats other than deserting Tory MPs. If Corbyn can keep some spotlight on stuff other than Brexit, just by trundling out last times manifesto which we know was popular, he might get some traction.
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There are still a lot of voters in the North that are clinging on to Corbyn's Labour, which is why Corbyn is sitting on the fence and not coming out for a Remain approach. If there were no votes at stake, he'd move to Remain to stem the flow to Lib Dem.

The problem with the UKIP example is that Brexit and the referendum weren't involved as a single, main issue as it is with the Brexit Party, and there wasn't the sense of outrage in the 2017 election that parliament had not delivered. I think the Brexit Party could do well in a GE if they get credible policies on other matters and some quality candidates.
 
Stroller said:
Yes, Labour would have to have a much clearer Brexit position when it came to a GE. Assuming a further A50 extension had already been sought and granted, a pragmatic manifesto proposal would be to negotiate further with the EU to get agreement on a Customs Union arrangement (solving the Irish border issue), and then to put this back to the people in a further referendum. This would see Labour as the biggest party in a hung parliament, I would say, and they would be able to form a government with the support of Lib Dems, SNP, Plaid and Greens.

I do actually enjoy this stuff.
Click to expand...

I haven' got the impression the LibDems, SNP, Plaid or Greens are going to support the Brexit you describe, possibly some would if the UK were to stay in the single market too.

I think Labour would do best by fully backing a new refererendum and the Remain option (though I would prefer a revocation of Article 50) , which could well make them the largest party, and then I think they would get the support of these other parties, Change UK too if they are still around.
 
QPR Oslo said:
I haven' got the impression the LibDems, SNP, Plaid or Greens are going to support the Brexit you describe, possibly some would if the UK were to stay in the single market too.

I think Labour would do best by fully backing a new refererendum and the Remain option (though I would prefer a revocation of Article 50) , which could well make them the largest party, and then I think they would get the support of these other parties, Change UK too if they are still around.
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If Labour's manifesto promised a referendum on its own renegotiated Brexit deal, I think they would get the required support to form a government.
 
QPR Oslo said:
I haven' got the impression the LibDems, SNP, Plaid or Greens are going to support the Brexit you describe, possibly some would if the UK were to stay in the single market too.

I think Labour would do best by fully backing a new refererendum and the Remain option (though I would prefer a revocation of Article 50) , which could well make them the largest party, and then I think they would get the support of these other parties, Change UK too if they are still around.
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At some stage in this whole stupid process a few people are going to understand that they can’t get everything they want.

If Remain is an option on a binary referendum in the future many people will be justifiably furious and lose all faith in a system which has let them down hugely.
 
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sb_73 said:
At some stage in this whole stupid process a few people are going to understand that they can’t get everything they want.

If Remain is an option on a binary referendum in the future many people will be justifiably furious and lose all faith in a system which has let them down hugely.
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If the people you say would be furious about Remain being an option on another referendum were able to accept that the Brexit they were led to believe they would get is actually undeliverable because of the Irish border issue, and were prepared to compromise on a Customs Union, we could all move on. The problem is not the system, it's unrealistic expectations and dogma.
 
Stroller said:
If the people you say would be furious about Remain being an option on another referendum were able to accept that the Brexit they were led to believe they would get is actually undeliverable because of the Irish border issue, and were prepared to compromise on a Customs Union, we could all move on. The problem is not the system, it's unrealistic expectations and dogma.
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I agree that compromise is the only way out. But people were presented with a simple binary choice in 2016 and made a decision. Any future referendum will be doubtless also be binary, because an STV choice is undoubtedly weighted against no deal. It’s a systemic failure of referendum design, and parliamentary politics in that the referendum delivered a result that would not be implemented by politicians.

Probably semantics though.
 
sb_73 said:
I agree that compromise is the only way out. But people were presented with a simple binary choice in 2016 and made a decision. Any future referendum will be doubtless also be binary, because an STV choice is undoubtedly weighted against no deal. It’s a systemic failure of referendum design, and parliamentary politics in that the referendum delivered a result that would not be implemented by politicians.

Probably semantics though.
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I'm probably being thick, but why is STV weighted against no-deal?
 
Quite Possibly Raving said:
I'm probably being thick, but why is STV weighted against no-deal?
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I assume because the choices would be negotiated deal v no deal v remain. Now I look at it I’m not so sure it is so biased, but I still think any further referendum should be binary negotiated deal v no deal. We’ve had the Remain v Leave one already.
 
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Elsewhere, Berlin is facing a rent rise crisis as the popularity of the city grows and landlords cash in. So the city government is implementing a five year rent freeze for all properties except social housing (managed separately) and new build housing for rent. Brilliant.

Rents in Berlin are about 66% of those in London. Is there any such thing as rent control here? Does the London Assembly have any powers in this regard?
 
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Bad luck Goldie, your boy Raab binned.

Gove-Stewart joint ticket speculation, as Stewart is the biggest gainer in round two.

What larks!
 
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sb_73 said:
Bad luck Goldie, your boy Raab binned.

Gove-Stewart joint ticket speculation, as Stewart is the biggest gainer in round two.

What larks!
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Raab is young. Not yet his time. My second choice then, is Boris PM, and Raab heading up the Brexit negotiations (the EU may yet regret calling him a turnip)
 
GoldhawkRoad said:
Raab is young. Not yet his time. My second choice then, is Boris PM, and Raab heading up the Brexit negotiations (the EU may yet regret calling him a turnip)
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I suspect Stewart is best placed to be next but one leader, after the inevitable Johnson crash and burn. EU has disbanded its negotiating team, not sure they will reconvene it to chat to Johnson and Raab. They have experience of both.
 
sb_73 said:
Elsewhere, Berlin is facing a rent rise crisis as the popularity of the city grows and landlords cash in. So the city government is implementing a five year rent freeze for all properties except social housing (managed separately) and new build housing for rent. Brilliant.

Rents in Berlin are about 66% of those in London. Is there any such thing as rent control here? Does the London Assembly have any powers in this regard?
Click to expand...
Berlin is a City State Stan, it has a Parliament with the same powers as states such as Bavaria. The other two cities which have federal state status are Hamburg and Bremen.
 
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sb_73 said:
I suspect Stewart is best placed to be next but one leader, after the inevitable Johnson crash and burn. EU has disbanded its negotiating team, not sure they will reconvene it to chat to Johnson and Raab. They have experience of both.
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If Brexit is sorted whichever way Stewart has gained massively in his own projection for the future...
 
sb_73 said:
I suspect Stewart is best placed to be next but one leader, after the inevitable Johnson crash and burn. EU has disbanded its negotiating team, not sure they will reconvene it to chat to Johnson and Raab. They have experience of both.
Click to expand...

If the EU think a move to WTO is in prospect, they'd talk to anyone. They (or at least heads of government) are not nearly as relaxed or inflexible on this as they say. They'd have to explain to their electorate after job losses and economic hits why they were not prepared to review the indefinite Irish backstop
 
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Junckers calling the Brits "deserters" who will get no favours. True attitudes are finally coming to the surface.

Meanwhile Merkel videoed shaking alarmingly at an official visit. Hope her health is ok
 
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