Off Topic The Politics Thread

[Stroller]

This might just work.........


How May summed up her "New Brexit Deal' in 10 points
Here is the section from May’s speech in which she summed up her offer as a 10-point plan.

So our New Brexit Deal makes a ten-point offer to everyone in Parliament who wants to deliver the result of the referendum.

One - the government will seek to conclude alternative arrangements to replace the backstop by December 2020, so that it never needs to be used.

Two - a commitment that, should the backstop come into force, the government will ensure that Great Britain will stay aligned with Northern Ireland.

Three - the negotiating objectives and final treaties for our future relationship with the EU will have to be approved by MPs.

Four - a new workers’ rights bill that guarantees workers’ rights will be no less favourable than in the EU.

Five - there will be no change in the level of environmental protection when we leave the EU.

Six - the UK will seek as close to frictionless trade in goods with the EU as possible while outside the single market and ending free movement.

Seven - we will keep up to date with EU rules for goods and agri-food products that are relevant to checks at border protecting the thousands of jobs that depend on just-in-time supply chains.

Eight - the government will bring forward a customs compromise for MPs to decide on to break the deadlock.

Nine - there will be a vote for MPs on whether the deal should be subject to a referendum.

And ten – there will be a legal duty to secure changes to the political declaration to reflect this new deal.

All of these commitments will be guaranteed in law – so they will endure at least for this parliament.

 

[Uber_Hoop]

The heart of the argument is that, as EU members, we have existing trade agreements or preferential trade conditions with around 50 markets in the World as a result of our EU membership. All these would have to be renegotiated individually in the case of a hard Brexit.

I hate to be facetious, but so what?

 

[Uber_Hoop]

Never quite understood the issue of sovereignty, and why so many people have a problem with the idea of pooled sovereignty. Surely sovereignty begins with the individual and we then pool this when we become members of a society - we give up some rights in order to have others better protected. The pooled sovereignty of a city, or nation state is stronger than that which you would have as an individual - so why do we have so much difficulty admitting that the pooled sovereignty which we have in the EU. is greater than that which a nation state can give you ? Will there be any sovereignty in Britain chasing TTIP type deals with the rest of the World to compensate for the loss of EU membership, and that through a position of weakness, where we need those deals more than our new partners ?

I guess it boils down to how big an entity do you want exercising that sovereignty on your behalf? I’m not that naive that I believe individuals don’t have to conform to something, or institutions have to operate in within the laws, customs or practices within which they exist, but I just kinda like the idea of not being governed by the EU to the extent that we appear to be. I kinda like the idea of cooperating but not being commanded. Is that OK? I hope that doesn’t make me a nasty incontinent racist or something. Oh, my giddy aunt.

 

[colognehornet]

I guess it boils down to how big and entity do you want exercising that sovereignty on your behalf? I’m not that naive that I believe individuals don’t have to conform to something, or institutions have to operate in within the laws, customs or practices within which they exist, but I just kinda like the idea of not being governed by the EU to the extent that we appear to be. I kinda like the idea of cooperating but not being commanded. Is that OK? I hope that doesn’t make me a nasty incontinent racist or something. Oh, my giddy aunt.

Ok. but can you name some of these laws which you claim come from the EU. which you personally don't like, or which have actually inconvenienced you in some way. Unfortunately very few of those who claim sovereignty to be the issue on this can actually point to one law when asked. Also Britain helped in shaping those EU. laws - in fact Britain voted for 95% of them, which is a higher ratio than any other country.

 

[Uber_Hoop]

Ok. but can you name some of these laws which you claim come from the EU. which you personally don't like, or which have actually inconvenienced you in some way. Unfortunately very few of those who claim sovereignty to be the issue on this can actually point to one law when asked. Also Britain helped in shaping those EU. laws - in fact Britain voted for 95% of them, which is a higher ratio than any other country.

Weights and measures.
Arrest warrant.
Human rights.
Expensive and unwanted MEPs.
Suggestions of European army.
Aforementioned immigration concerns.
Euro.
Queuing up with Giuseppe, Francois & Helmut to re-enter my own country.
Hat sizes.
Bent bananas.

I’m not saying everything the EU does is wrong or unwanted; just that we can do it ourselves and put our own twist on things. Nothing wrong in harmonising things, of course, but also nothing wrong with having the option not to either.

 

[kiwiqpr]

Never quite understood the issue of sovereignty, and why so many people have a problem with the idea of pooled sovereignty. Surely sovereignty begins with the individual and we then pool this when we become members of a society - we give up some rights in order to have others better protected. The pooled sovereignty of a city, or nation state is stronger than that which you would have as an individual - so why do we have so much difficulty admitting that the pooled sovereignty which we have in the EU. is greater than that which a nation state can give you ? Will there be any sovereignty in Britain chasing TTIP type deals with the rest of the World to compensate for the loss of EU membership, and that through a position of weakness, where we need those deals more than our new partners ?

lets forget the eu
just go the whole hog and go straight to a world govt with trump or whoever the us president is at the time as supreme leader
then no one has to worry about any trade deals etc

 

[kiwiqpr]

It’s a milkshake. He’s not stabbed him.

farage should be happy they didnt use cake

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[Uber_Hoop]

https://www.google.co.uk/amp/s/www....my-decisions-rules-regulations-Britain-EU/amp

Why can’t I eat my horse if I want to?

 

[kiwiqpr]

https://www.google.co.uk/amp/s/www....my-decisions-rules-regulations-Britain-EU/amp

Why can’t I eat my horse if I want to?

they do seem to have a lot of spare time on their marigold covered hands

 

[Uber_Hoop]

they do seem to have a lot of spare time on their marigold covered hands

That’s to stop the ‘fruit spread’ from getting under their fingernails.

 

[colognehornet]

Weights and measures.
Arrest warrant.
Human rights.
Expensive and unwanted MEPs.
Suggestions of European army.
Aforementioned immigration concerns.
Euro.
Queuing up with Giuseppe, Francois & Helmut to re-enter my own country.
Hat sizes.
Bent bananas.

I’m not saying everything the EU does is wrong or unwanted; just that we can do it ourselves and put our own twist on things. Nothing wrong in harmonising things, of course, but also nothing wrong with having the option not to either.

Well, beginning with the bent bananas - laws like this were made at the demand of the retail industry which wants to classify products according to quality. If this wasn't done by the EU. it would have to be done by the individual governments.
Nobody is asking you to join the Euro - or a hypothetical European Army which doesn't exist yet and probably never will do. As for weights and measures - you still have your pint ! The only reason you have to queue up to get into your country is because you control your own borders. You have expensive and unwanted MPs already, with or without the EU. As for the European court of human rights, even Russia is signed up for this. European arrest warrants allow for exchange of info. and the deportation of unwanted guests - try deporting after Brexit and see how difficult it will be. The question of immigration is a more difficult one - we will presume that you don't want to stop the 20 million EU. tourists who come to London every year, spend their money and then go, but how do you tell the tourist from the immigrant at the point of entry ? The problem is that Britain already has about a million illegal immigrants already - from non EU. countries - do you want to add to that number ?

 

[kiwiqpr]

That’s to stop the ‘fruit spread’ from getting under their fingernails.

bloody turnips
(or is that swedes..
hybrid between a turnip and a type of cabbage and were developed in Sweden in the 17th century ....)

 

[Uber_Hoop]

Well, beginning with the bent bananas - laws like this were made at the demand of the retail industry which wants to classify products according to quality. If this wasn't done by the EU. it would have to be done by the individual governments.
Nobody is asking you to join the Euro - or a hypothetical European Army which doesn't exist yet and probably never will do. As for weights and measures - you still have your pint ! The only reason you have to queue up to get into your country is because you control your own borders. You have expensive and unwanted MPs already, with or without the EU. As for the European court of human rights, even Russia is signed up for this. European arrest warrants allow for exchange of info. and the deportation of unwanted guests - try deporting after Brexit and see how difficult it will be. The question of immigration is a more difficult one - we will presume that you don't want to stop the 20 million EU. tourists who come to London every year, spend their money and then go, but how do you tell the tourist from the immigrant at the point of entry ? The problem is that Britain already has about a million illegal immigrants already - from non EU. countries - do you want to add to that number ?

There’s a lot there and I’m on a train, so will consider and perhaps respond later.

I get most agitated about hats.

The thing is, though, Odie, there’s not much there that I lose much sleep over. But I was asked a question in the referendum and gave an answer. The same one I’d give again if asked. If the majority voted to stay, the world would keep turning, the sun will come up tomorrow and my life would still be largely ****.

 

[Uber_Hoop]

bloody turnips
(or is that swedes..
hybrid between a turnip and a type of cabbage and were developed in Sweden in the 17th century ....)

I hated it when the late head of Apple poached all our Eastern European labourers...

Bloody Jobs, coming over here and taking all our Poles!

 

[QPR Oslo]

There’s a lot of bile in that, Os. Reading that, one may be forgiven for believing that whatever one’s reasons for voting Leave certain people with opposing views will always label you a racist because it’s easy.

I can honestly say that my reason for voting Leave was similar to Col’s, ie sovereignty. And, yes, I accept all the arguments around WTF sovereignty is these days. But, what I didn’t want it to be was the evermore drift of decision-making to the continent.

The racist slur, to me, is interesting. Leaving the EU may mean the end to the free movement of peoples between the UK and continental Europe. If I were a racist - and I’m not, so I may be off beam here - then I rather think I’d be more concerned with stopping the migration of people with a different coloured skin than my fellow Europeans.

Leaving the EU doesn’t stop people from Asia and elsewhere applying to settle in this country. The UK has a proud record of such immigration and many sectors, particularly medicine, have benefited greatly.

What Leave would/should put a stop to, however, is the attempted immigration to the UK from people that have been first let into the EU by other member states, themselves safe in the knowledge that these people are just passing through. I don’t see concerns about this as being racist. It seems quite sensible to me to wish for a better system than the Calais camps and whatever. Quite what that system might be I’m not quite sure.

I suspect this is probably a racist point of view to somebody that thinks we should leave the door ajar to everybody, but the concerns are legitimate.

They’re just not the primary reason why I voted Leave.

No bile aimed at you at all, I just wonder how anyone who isn't a racist like yourself can vote for a political party led by someone as clearly racist as Farage.

 

[kiwiqpr]

The electoral commission are supposed to be visiting his offices today re allegations of improper funding. The EU are supposed to be looking at his non-disclosure of lavish gifts and funding from Arron Banks as an MEP, (think I read he's been done by them before) and there is an ongoing investigation going on in the US in connection with Arron Banks.

Isabel Oakeshott‏Verified account@IsabelOakeshott 3h3 hours ago
"We have not seen evidence of any electoral offences" admits the @ElectoralCommUK re. their shameful stunt visiting @brexitparty_uk offices today. Just 48hrs before polling day, they jumped to do the bidding of a handful of notorious left wing agitators and a bored ex Labour PM

 

[Uber_Hoop]

No bile aimed at you at all, I just wonder how anyone who isn't a racist like yourself can vote for a political party led by someone as clearly racist as Farage.

I did the ‘is Farage racist?’ bit with Stroller last week and he had the good grace to admit that “perhaps” he wasn’t. He may have revisited this since. But, other than the immigration queue poster (which I saw as effective political scaremongering rather than racist) where is Farage ‘clearly racist’ please?

A vote for The Brexit Party is merely a vote for seeing through what I voted for in the referendum.

There are many that will vote Labour when the party appears riven with anti-semites and its leader is clearly (yes, clearly) a supporter of terrorism.

There were many that voted for Obama and the man dropped more bombs in the Middle East than his predecessor, the apparent warmonger Dubya.

Who’d have thought that ‘just a regular guy’ like Anthony Blair would’ve jammed himself so tightly up Dubya’s arsehole in order to make the world a ‘safer’ place on his way to a personal fortune?

The world was falling over itself to canonise Aung San Suu Kyi and what did she turn out to be?

Footnote: if Blair/Bush (and ****ing Cameron too) had exercised some restraint after 9/11 instead of the ‘War on Terror’ perhaps the Middle East and surrounding region would not have been quite so destabilised in the first place and we wouldn’t have migration on the scale we see today? Perhaps those poor souls on London Bridge would still be alive?

But, no! Farage is the one to be vilified even though the likes of him & Trump are the consequence of the stupidity that came before.

 

[Sooperhoop]

No bile aimed at you at all, I just wonder how anyone who isn't a racist like yourself can vote for a political party led by someone as clearly racist as Farage.

It's very simple, all the politicians who lied through their teeth at the last election have to face the retribution of the voters. There is only one party that unequivocally meets their criteria and that's Brexit, it does what it says on the tin.

Farage knows he will never get anywhere in a General Election other than to sign the Tory Party death certificate, the Brexit Party will only be there to inflict embarrassment on the EU and galvanise anti-EU feeling in other countries such as Italy and Hungary who are heading in the same direction. Once one or two others lead the way the EU is in real danger of falling apart, Germany is already beginning to feel the backlash against Merkel so the cracks are there which is why they are sh*tting themselves over the prospect of a someone like Farage stirring it up, they've no one to blame but themselves...

 

[kiwiqpr]

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[Stroller]

I'm quite surprised that May's latest proposal has been dismissed out of hand on all sides. I'd vote for it and I think that the Labour party should be supporting it. If she'd come up with this kind of compromise two years ago, it would all have been done by now.