A referendum now will at least give voters an idea of what they are voting for. I find it hard to believe that more than a very few who voted Leave 2.5 years ago, were voting for what the Cabinet agreed to last week. Other than feeling threatened by the prospect of leaving with no deal, it's hard to see that many would vote for this fudge satisfying nobody, now either. A new referendum including the clear option of staying in the EU is clearly the democratic way to proceed, reducing the no deal threat.
And you are an expert? Too many people think they know everything but time and time again are wrong. Just take a look back over the thread and see some of the scare stories which are laughable. I have always said that if we get offered a bad deal we should walk away. The EU would run after us quicker than Bolt. Mays deal is not a good one and something’s got give... maybe we could give it back to the people for another once in a lifetime vote?
And you called me a ‘fool’? After that comment a fool isn’t that bad. And people ask why May didn’t get a good deal? It’s because the EU saw how the remoaners act after a democratic vote and think that is just like the way the EU runs.
What a load of old tosh. The vote to leave was won. If there is to be a vote it should not include remain as they lost the first vote It should be chequers or no deal only.
When was the last time you were in this country for any length of time Ossie? It’s toxic, and another referendum would take the toxicity to fatal levels. The politicians have to decide - do they let half the country feel betrayed by having another probably inconclusive vote, do they **** the entire country over by failing to reach any managed way forward or do they do their jobs and accept responsibility and accountability for finding a tolerable way forward for the majority of the population?
Another vote would undoubtedly cause unrest, how severe, who knows, but it would be perceived as an injustice. The outcome may well be different, I know of only one person who changed from remain to leave, but lots of radio callers have gone the other way, based on what they say they've subsequently learned. Brings it back to the original vote, the truth behind the campaigns, the options and the consequences.
I'm afraid that I can't see a case for a new referendum. If opinion polls had clearly shifted and 65%+ consistently supported remaining, critically with a number of former leavers having switched, then there would perhaps be a case. As it stands, with polls neck and neck, I can't see the point. Comments from Merkel / Macron on a joint army would be leapt on my leave, as would the perceived tough EU negotiating stance - if European leaders were interested in reversing our decision I don't think they would be making that type of announcement. Plus, Corbyn hasn't changed his position and would have the excuse he needs to not campaign at all for remain this time... All seems a bit futile to me, and will throw heaps of delay and uncertainty into an already fraught process. Remainers would be better off campaigning as hard as possible for as soft a Brexit as possible.
Yep I hate Brexiteers I have to be honest if I am not allowed to use hate then I strongly disagree with their political outlook re the vote. I believe in democracy however and some how the vote went wrong I also believe that democracy will defeat Brexiteers Now Democracy has the facts I don’t even mind best of three The same as football fans like QPR hate Chelsea It’s us and them Plenty of evidence on this thread that Brexiteers wind up Remainers Plenty of examples where they have insulted the EU and it’s people Don’t know these people don’t know any Brexiteers
And everyone needs to remember it was a simple question to leave or remain and the majority voted to leave. Since then remoaners have tried to complicate what leave actually meant. We don’t need another vote. The implementation is wrong note the vote. Remove May and that remainer muppet Robbins and put someone else in. Maybe if they had given us a vote on Maastricht and Lisbon treaties I wouldn’t have minded. Maybe on that ‘People’s vote’ (that always makes me laugh) we could vote on the other treaties as well? Oops I forgot we didn’t get a say did we?
Disagree Woody the radio shows I listen to say different. In fact many remainers don’t want another vote and would not vote again (which is honourable on their part as it wouldnt be democratic). According to some if there was another vote the result would be the same... what then? Same old remoaners would complain. they said they would respect the first vote and haven’t. What if remain won... would that be it? Let’s vote until we get the result some want? People need to stop moaning and get on with it.
That's just plain pig headed stupidity. Typical hard core Brexit at all costs nonsense. True democracy would offer the m right to change your mind. You must really be scared people truly have changed their minds.
Funny it’s only remainers that want this vote....I wonder why? As for changing minds. When people have project fear blasting out everyday by the people who want to remain and a PM who has managed to cock up negotiations due to remainers what do you expect? Don’t give me the ‘True democracy’ crap as it took 4 decades to get this chance to leave and we only triggered article 50 2 years ago and are still within the time. Trying to stop it is un-democratic.
I was listening to Alistair Campbell on the radio today who was discussing these events and although I could agree with some of what he said he did say something stupid regarding being in the EU as a major player and shaping it. If only... if the EU had listened over the years they wouldn’t have a major player leaving but sadly they will never listen. They didn’t listen to Cameron or the others things we tried to implement or adapt. The EU will never change. Even today I have read in various articles that Italy will probably leave the Euro due to bullying by the EU over their reforms. That will end in tears. In the same radio show it was mentioned that Tony Blair gave France 7 billion Euros hoping to get something in the future... it never happened.... a broken promise. All this mob do is take our money and abuse us. Let some of those crap 27 cough up a bit of dosh and build the Empire ( cue Star Wars theme).
The word democracy is branded about like its actually been relative to the referendum. It's been a farce from start to present day! A question asked to leave/remain based around campaigns that blatantly lied and misled. Then the leave vote narrowly wins, but wins it does and then doesn't get implemented as described. Is anyone surprised considering the **** we were fed?! I hear the negatives and positives about the EU and they're negotiating. I heard how this would be the easiest deal ever to negotiate by our own government reps. The Tory in house fighting, making us look totally amateurish, we are on our 3rd brexit Secretary, God knows how many resignations and yet still this word democracy gets mentioned at every turn. We vote governments in based on policies for them not to implement them or totally change their minds. Democracy has been made a mockery of at every turn during the last 2 years! Our own government have peddled the majority of scare stories, the ERG claim we won't see benefits of a no deal for around 50 years or something. What a complete **** up this country is becoming! But hey the football is looking brighter
Great post - couldn't agree more and I voted remain. There's hope yet I'm also glad you continue to contribute as have always thought you're one of the best posters on this thread - and this is the best political thread on the forum as a whole.
