Off Topic The Politics Thread

  • Please bear with us on the new site integration and fixing any known bugs over the coming days. If you can not log in please try resetting your password and check your spam box. If you have tried these steps and are still struggling email [email protected] with your username/registered email address
  • Log in now to remove adverts - no adverts at all to registered members!

Should the UK remain a part of the EU or leave?

  • Stay in

    Votes: 56 47.9%
  • Get out

    Votes: 61 52.1%

  • Total voters
    117
  • Poll closed .
Saw this on FB by someone called A Howard. A very well-reasoned piece, it seems to me, about the perils of No-Deal. Would any of the 'tell 'em to **** off' brigade (which now seems to include Dominic Raab) care to refute it?

Last week on the school run, some fathers were teasing me about my “Brexit obsession” and couldn’t see what I was so worried about. I explained that I have never been so worried and am awake at 4am most nights. We laughed at me being consumed with worries that are none of my responsibility. I compared myself to Maple barking furiously while her owners were out of the house and there was no one there to listen to her warnings.


It became immediately apparent as I explained the consequences of no deal to them and saw the horror on their faces that most people in this country have no real understanding of what no deal really means.

Most people seem to think that if we leave with no deal then we just carry on as normal, right? They think it’s like deciding not to go ahead with a purchase in a shop - don’t we just stick with what we have got instead?

Sadly not. If we have no deal, we leave with nothing and what’s more lose nearly everything we have got as well. The anticipated recession will be worse than the 1930s let alone 2008. it is impossible to say how long it would go on for - some say 10 years others 20 or 30.

The empty mantra of “no deal is better than a bad deal” and nostalgic hopes that Britain is great, coped during the war and can recover its previous glory have blindsided people to reality. It also ignores the way that our country, technology, globalisation and intense competition have changed in the last 60 years or so.

I don’t presume that you want to read my early morning rantings but in case you want more information, here are some basic facts of no deal (boring but important).

If not then skip to the end of the bullets (or tell me to shut up and go back to sleep..)

- everyone describes no deal as leaving on WTO terms. But there are no WTO terms that apply specifically to the U.K. Everyone assumed that we could simply rely on the EU’s Schedule of tariffs. That has recently been blocked by members of the WTO. Understandably. Why should the U.K. as a minor player be able to take advantage of the negotiating position of a large global trading bloc like the EU?

- So we will have to negotiate our own tariffs - Which means getting the agreement of all 160 WTO members. The last successful round of negotiations was in 1994-every round since then has collapsed.

- So unless we can set up emergency cover, we will see a hiatus in trade that will kick in on 30 March with no transition period.

- Even if a U.K. schedule is agreed, we will see tariffs averaging 10% on imports and exports. In some sectors like meat and dairy they are as high as 97%. So U.K. farmers that export lamb and beef will see their prices double and won’t be able to compete with other markets. Their imports of animal feed and fertilisers will also face tariffs so their costs will increase squeezing their margins which are already under pressure. For manufacturing companies that import components and export finished goods, they face double tariffs affecting their ability to compete.

- So ok we pay a bit more money for things and a few companies and farmers go bust. We may not get the full range of things in the shops. So what?

- Only it’s not just about money. We are dependent on imports for a lot of things that we don’t make anymore, never have or simply cannot as they are patented - like life saving drugs, medical equipment and scanners, chemicals, electricity, petrol, milk. We will all be locked out of EU regulatory frameworks and agencies. With another winter NHS crisis and an population that needs heating and feeding, that could cost lives or spread panic and unrest.

- In any event tariffs are not the main problem. The real issue are non tariff barriers like quality standards. The EU has high protection for product safety, food safety and hygiene, child safety, environmental protection, consumer protection and labelling. (Think CE Marks or fire ******ant standards for kids fancy dress, choking hazards, nut allergy labelling). The U.K. currently acts as a gateway to the single market, receiving goods from Asia before they are distributed elsewhere in the EU. The EU will not let in goods that avoid its standards. So we will have to follow those rules in any event leaving us a ruletaker with no say.

- Even if we follow, there will be border checks and inspections - cue months of delays at ports and motorway congestion. Cue perishable goods and medicines going off. Cue insolvency in the supply chain as cash flow dries up.

- But hang on a minute - we can sign up to our own trade deals now! Yes assuming anyone wants to. On 30 March we will be leaving the EU’s 48 FTAs in exchange for .. zero. Those agreements take on average 7 years to negotiate and they have to be ratified within the WTO framework (see point 1 above). In reality, most countries will want to negotiate with the EU first as a major market of 650m customers before they agree anything with the U.K. That is because they have to offer the same terms under the WTO rules to all other states. Commercially manufacturers won’t want to produce small volumes of products for a small market like the U.K. that are different as it is too expensive. If we are lucky we will get the same terms as the EU but we will then be a rule taker rather than in charge of our destiny. So a lot of hassle and delay for not much upshot. We will be turning our back on our largest customer (our trade deficit with the EU is 60%) in exchange for uncertain prospect of other deals. And the volumes of trade under these FTAs will be minuscule.

- What is more the FTAs will be far inferior to what we currently have for services (which make up 80-90% of our economy). The EU regime is state of the art with mutual recognition and passporting so that U.K. business can trade automatically in 30 EEA states and all their dependent territories around the world. No licences, red tape or authorisations or double regulation at home and abroad. The WTO/GATTs regime is embryonic in comparison. States can discriminate on a discretionary basis and impose barriers like requiring you to requalify as a doctor, accountant or architect under their rules. Most States like India and Singapore don’t want the Brits coming in and taking over their markets.

Most of you will have given up reading by now. Too much detail, too boring, too much naysaying, too much project fear. Too much doing down Britain and not enough patriotic zeal.

I love my country and am immensely proud of what it has achieved. But it has not done that alone. The Empire was not built by white AngloSaxon hands alone...the UK’s success in the last 25 years is due in large part to Thatcher’s vision for the EU single market, where the U.K. shared and cooperated with its European counterparts.

My fears stem from my love of the U.K. and the future of the next generation (including my own children). I refuse to sell them a dud. I want to be able to look them in the eye and tell them I did my my very best for them.

What I don’t understand is the passivity that people have towards their own lives and destinies. They blindly assume that all will be ok and someone will sort it out for them. Or they are in depressed stupor, shrugging it off as all too complicated and what difference can one individual make? But what difference do raindrops make?!

People snort and say the Government won’t let this happen. Sadly I am not that convinced. I have read all 585 pages of May’s deal and the political declaration. While I do think it is the best she could have got (actually better than I expected) it is not a patch on what we have being inside the EU or even EFTA/EEA model. What’s more we will have to pay 60m for the privilege and then no doubt pay annual ongoing payments to buy our way back into specific sectors where we need market access. The cost of Brexit to the taxpayer is already huge. The cost of no deal will quickly subsume the 350m a week with no upside in terms of trade, EU funding and infrastructure. I am convinced that if we leave and taste the fruits of May’s deal or no deal, there will quickly be a move to rejoin the EU. That may take 10-15 years and we will lose the benefit of Thatcher’s hard won rebates, vetoes and kiss goodbye to sterling.

Timing is now becoming critical. I do not think May’s deal will command sufficient votes in Parliament. No one will be able to renegotiate better terms for that deal. That is not the EU being stubborn or a bully - it’s just the hard reality of us deciding to leave the club. That means unless Parliament gives alternative instructions that can be completed and ratified before March, we will leave with no deal.
The politicians are locked in paralysis and take their impetus from what they think their constituents want - as expressed in the referendum. If there is a change then they need to know about it.


Are you going to stand idly by? A witness to your own car crash? With your kids or grandkids strapped in the back?

At the end of the day, as I said before the referendum, it depends on what kind of society you want to live in. There are those that want to align the UK more closely with the US with its low cost, low regulation economy where each man (gender deliberate) looks out for himself. That is good for business and shareholders but it puts profits ahead of people. Low regulations mean lower wages, lower employment protections such as maternity, parental leave and sickness cover. It means lower tax for business but reduced benefits for ordinary citizens in terms of health, education and other public services. Today’s UN report on austerity does not make easy reading but that situation will only worsen when the costs of Brexit work their way through to employees, taxpayers and consumers. I don’t see the likes of R-M and Farage suffering but will hit those hardest that are already worse off.

Sensible policy making involves trade offs and compromises. We cannot have it all. It is time we work out what is more important - stopping immigration or preserving our own rights of free movement, preserving freedom to trade and with whom or maintaining our island independence, upholding the concept of sovereignty or engaging in international dialogue and cooperation, preserving our economy or our personal identity, reinforcing our statesmanship and global influence or just the memory of our Glorious past?

I don’t know the answers but all I do know is that I don’t want our children’s futures to be the collateral damage. And nobody voted to be worse off or to see further austerity cuts to education, pensions or the NHS.

Do be honest, after the first paragraph (that has been used umpteen times by pro remainers on Facebook and twitter) about how a much more intelligent remainer needs to educate those stupid brexiteers and once he/she does those pro brexiteers recoil in horror and realise the error of their ways.........I couldn’t be arsed with the rest.
Sorry.
 
Do be honest, after the first paragraph (that has been used umpteen times by pro remainers on Facebook and twitter) about how a much more intelligent remainer needs to educate those stupid brexiteers and once he/she does those pro brexiteers recoil in horror and realise the error of their ways.........I couldn’t be arsed with the rest.
Sorry.

Yes, I can see that that would seem condescending, but I do think that there is a wilful disregard - particularly amongst hard-line Brexiteer Tory MPs - of what a No-Deal actually means. People that say 'nobody wants a No-Deal' are fooling themselves - these scumbags do.
 
Yes, I can see that that would seem condescending, but I do think that there is a wilful disregard - particularly amongst hard-line Brexiteer Tory MPs - of what a No-Deal actually means. People that say 'nobody wants a No-Deal' are fooling themselves - these scumbags do.

Mate, it’s just become a complete and utter mess and, to me anyway, seems no one, both for and against brexit are gonna get what they want. The negotiations by our government have been an utter shambles, not helped by certain elements in the EU who seem intent on ‘punishing’ the U.K. for daring to go it alone.
Again personally, I wasn’t swayed by the Russians or what was written on a bus.....I just saw the EU as an ‘old boys club’, where we, the people, are being used to pay the wages and pensions of various unelected officials, when the money could and should be used to help the poor and needy here.
The country is now divided and probably will be for many years to come . I can’t help thinking that many of those in charge are now jumping up for joy
 
Do be honest, after the first paragraph (that has been used umpteen times by pro remainers on Facebook and twitter) about how a much more intelligent remainer needs to educate those stupid brexiteers and once he/she does those pro brexiteers recoil in horror and realise the error of their ways.........I couldn’t be arsed with the rest.
Sorry.

I totally agree. Its a common theme and doesn't do anything to build bridges. That said I'd claim to be more intelligent than Nadine Dorries any day of the week!
 
It's a shame because I didn't have the heart to read much more than the first paragraph.
suddenly everyone is an expert on a 'no deal' situation. Contracts have been made pasts the deadline date with goods...do people really think EU counties will suddenly say "No dealing with the UK, so I will fold my 100 year old business"? It's laughable and people will not fall for this project fear rubbish anymore.

By the way I have booked my flight to Germany after the date when they said planes wouldn't fly...does that mean the won't honour my trip next year?

If we left with a no deal things just won't stop. Why do people write this ill-informed nonsense? The EU would be chasing us down the street for a deal. I am fed up with all the crap about delays/lorries blah blah blah.
I have used the Euro Tunnel 4 times and have been delayed by 2,2, 1 and 4 hours. Never been on time! I have been stuck in traffic jams with lorries going to Dover... So what? Even yesterday France was virtually brought to stand still over this Fuel thing with Macron.... And you know what... We are still in the bloody EU.

I keep hearing of a second vote or an election.... neither of which will settle this. Firstly how dare they ask for a second vote when the first hasn't been implemented! I am actually pleased that Corbyn doesn't want this and the polls clearly show the people don't. As for an election... what will that achieve? Even with Corbyn in power, the EU won't change its stance.

This whole 'love in' with the EU is ridiculous. If people think that if somehow we return we can reform from within you are deluded. It would be worse for us. We would be weaker and more importantly, they will make us join the failing Euro... Do people actually want that? Even this week some minister referred to the future of the EU as an 'Empire' <laugh>... actually I don't know whether to laugh or cry. :emoticon-0104-surpr

Remoaners and the 'enemy within' have ruined what should have been a golden opportunity for this country. Rather than accept a democratic vote and unite they have spent the last 2 years sabotaging the process. We had a strong hand going into these negotiations and this hand was undermined by incompetence and people who couldn't accept the result. Due to this, we are now left with Chequers which no one actually wants.
For me, we need to get rid of May and walk away. The EU will then realise that they won't survive without us and will come back with something we can all work with.
 
Apparently the tactic to get the deal through Parliament is:

- lose first vote
- stand by and see the carnage resulting in the stock and currency markets
- take it back for a second vote when MPs get what no deal actually means
- win second vote and get on with it

It has been dubbed the Kamikaze Option.
 
Apparently the tactic to get the deal through Parliament is:

- lose first vote
- stand by and see the carnage resulting in the stock and currency markets
- take it back for a second vote when MPs get what no deal actually means
- win second vote and get on with it

It has been dubbed the Kamikaze Option.

A no deal would always be better than the one we have. The Tories and Labour need to be careful because if Brexit doesn't happen UKIP will become a very big party. I would also see splits in Labour and the Cons.
This is what happens when people don't accept a democratic vote.
 
Apparently the tactic to get the deal through Parliament is:

- lose first vote
- stand by and see the carnage resulting in the stock and currency markets
- take it back for a second vote when MPs get what no deal actually means
- win second vote and get on with it

It has been dubbed the Kamikaze Option.
That really wouldn't surprise me. But I still think it will go through first time. I reckon there's enough MPs that are completely terrified of no deal and will do anything to avoid it.
 
Apparently the tactic to get the deal through Parliament is:

- lose first vote
- stand by and see the carnage resulting in the stock and currency markets
- take it back for a second vote when MPs get what no deal actually means
- win second vote and get on with it

It has been dubbed the Kamikaze Option.

Shouldn’t your third point read

- Take it back for a second vote when MP’s and their rich friends have become even richer from the carnage in the stock and currency markets
 
Shouldn’t your third point read

- Take it back for a second vote when MP’s and their rich friends have become even richer from the carnage in the stock and currency markets
You are a very cynical indidual Staines - I have no idea why you think this would happen <whistle>
 
  • Like
Reactions: Staines R's
There's clearly a case for the electorate to be educated in the full ramifications of an exit on WTO terms from reliable sources - but,in my view not from A Howard on Facebook, particularly as he can't be arsed to set the points out concisely but wants to tell his whole ****ing life story. There really are some self important twats about.

If the UK did decide to go this route, the EU would scramble to agree terms with us to minimize damage to them. Part of the current problem is that Brussels always believed May would take what she was given and prize ****s like Selmeyer have been saying that losing Northern Ireland was the price the UK had to pay for leaving.
 
There's clearly a case for the electorate to be educated in the full ramifications of an exit on WTO terms from reliable sources - but,in my view not from A Howard on Facebook, particularly as he can't be arsed to set the points out concisely but wants to tell his whole ****ing life story. There really are some self important twats about.

If the UK did decide to go this route, the EU would scramble to agree terms with us to minimize damage to them. Part of the current problem is that Brussels always believed May would take what she was given and prize ****s like Selmeyer have been saying that losing Northern Ireland was the price the UK had to pay for leaving.
He may well be self-important Goldie, but can you point to where he is wrong?
 
Shouldn’t your third point read

- Take it back for a second vote when MP’s and their rich friends have become even richer from the carnage in the stock and currency markets
Including many Brexiters. I was reading about a currency hedge fund owner and prominent Brexiter, Crispin Odey, who was crowing about the millions he made from shorting the pound this week. Of course James Dyson, always rolled out as the Brexit face of industry, now makes virtually nothing in the UK and wants to destroy employment protection here to increase his pool of cheap Labour.

Mr Brexit, Farage, denies shorting the £ during the referendum, but clearly its collapse after 16 June made him very happy.
You must log in or register to see images

I know these aren’t your mates, but they are your fellow travellers. I know you also dislike what describe as ‘unelected bureacrats’ (though there is a very clear system of accountability in the EU, ending up with elected officials) but if your real interest is reducing poverty (unless it is only UK poverty you care about), digest this: It was forecast that it would take 20-25 years for the new Eastern European EU members to benefit from joining. In fact Poland’s GDP grew by 60% in its first ten years. I was there last weekend and it clearly has a high standard of living and a low cost of living. The EU has redistributed wealth very effectively in some instances (not all, as the Greeks know). Sure it has corruption, but probably no more than national governments including ours, sure it is bureaucratic, sure it has made some rich people even richer, but it’s not all bad.
 
He may well be self-important Goldie, but can you point to where he is wrong?

At lot of what the great man says are assumptions and not fact.....ie delays at borders meaning produce and medicines ‘going off’.....of course this MIGHT happen....but it isn’t fact because it hasn’t yet happened.
People in 1999 thought planes might fall from the sky at midnight on 31Dec.....