Off Topic The Politics Thread

[YorkshireHoopster]

The problem with any second referendum is the wording of the question. Unless it is set as a cross between a multiple choice and an essay question we will be in exactly the same situation -the side that wins, whatever the majority, will claim that the people's verdict is clear. The side that loses will argue that nobody really knew what the implications were. The only way in which you could get a true feel of what the people actually want would be to conduct a survey. You know the sort. Like the ones your Bank ask you to fill in every two weeks, or the seller of whatever goods or services you've just bought tells you will take only a couple of minutes to fill in. If the majority could be bothered to waste the 45 minutes or so answering each of the questions (usually about 20) asking you to tell the surveyor on a scale of 1-10 what your position is, the results I suspect would show that there is no clear consensus at all about the path we should take.

Isn't that why we have Parliament and then our own massive bureaucracy to implement the decisions? Referendums don't work for the reasons given above. There needs to be a deal done. The best deal that this shower can deliver will get through because the majority of MPs in Parliament want to respect the result of the Referendum. Anybody who says different is propagating Operation Fear. I don't agree with the mantra that No deal is better than a bad deal. No deal is only an option for politicians who take an extreme view and who believe that they personally will benefit from a surge in popularity. A bad deal will mean that those responsible will be punished at the next election. The next government will then work to try to repair the damage over a period of time.

In the end do we really want to be in a position where the country's future is dictated by Arlene Phillips and what is best for her small band of sectarians?.

 

[TheBigDipper]

Am I being thick or isn’t Dipper suggesting that we have a referendum not stay/leave, but on what type of leave? Which is a bit different, and I wouldn’t have a clue on how to design it. As you know in normal circumstances I would say that this is the job of elected governments, but the one we have at the moment clearly needs the people to give it direction.

All a bit academic, it’s not going to happen, we are going to wander blindly into whatever happens.

Yes. That's what I was suggesting. Then we'd know what sort of leave would be acceptable. Instead, we have everyone saying they know, and - conveniently - it's the version that they personally wanted.

 

[TheBigDipper]

He said that people like me don't want to give people who think differently a say. I simply pointed out that we all had a say.
The problem with a vote on the kind of brexit is that, every version I've seen is designed to split the leave vote, with 2nd choices etc.
I don't agree that we're going blindly into brexit. The government have been useless, but they are, finally starting to show some readiness for a no deal.
I've already said that I wouldn't be against a Norway type deal by way of transition, but I firmly believe that a no deal resulting in WTO will be ok after some initial bumps in the road. I'd certainly prefer that to a fudge whereby we are still governed by EU regulations and judges, without any say whatsoever.
Still, there we are, round full circle again mate.

Is this you, Col?

/BDquote/
Some of the people who voted to leave the EU really do want to fall off the cliff, have the quickest, cleanest break possible and then deal with the aftermath of the pain it will give the country. Some are insulated from future pain by their wealth and position, of course - and we know who some of those people are. Others are prepared to suffer a little to shape the country into the country they want - and make others suffer with them.
/endBDquote/

If this is you, then yes, I did mean you and people who want the same as you. Your comment above suggests that you're in this group.

/Colquote/
The problem with a vote on the kind of brexit is that, every version I've seen is designed to split the leave vote, with 2nd choices etc.
/endColquote/

We had a referendum to choose between leave or stay. I'd like a democratic consultation with the people to see what form the leaving should take and what our future relationship with the EU27 should be. No-one has asked me. The amount of argument about it so far clearly shows that we don't have a consensus in the country about how it should be done. The 2016 referendum wasn't it. To try and claim otherwise is just plain incorrect.

People who want a clean break, No Deal and the damage people say it brings to the economy of the country, will never agree to a referendum about the type of future arrangement - because they know they would not get the result they want. The majority of the country does not support it. When 48% didn't want to leave the EU at all, how could it possibly be the winner?

So I may have my say on forums like this, but I haven't had my democratic say in the form of a referendum that asks everyone that question.

But I know that referendum will never happen. It's too late in the day and parliament doesn't have the guts to try. If you're one of the No Deal people, you stand a good chance of getting it. Just don't do it in my name. It doesn't have my support.

This is an expensive, painful way to learn that democracy needs to be taken seriously, and that "winner takes all" is a temporary thing that ultimately fails everyone.

 

[ELLERS]

Oh my god. Zzzzzzz!

 

[awjm]

Just want to throw this in there:

I want to leave the EU because I don't like the EU. But if we have a vote tomorrow I'd still vote remain.

Why? Because this Tory government is much more damaging to our country than the EU is. We need the EU to limit the damage that the Tories are trying to do to this country.

But if we had a democratic socialist government in place who still wanted to have very good relations with the other European countries, I'd be happy to leave.

The EU will eventually bring ruin and harm to all of Europe, further down the line, unless it makes massive reforms. But at the moment, the EU is preventing our government from demolishing the welfare state and is actually committing human rights breaches and will commit more in future without EU regulations to hold them back.

The EU also prevents our banking system from becoming even more crooked and creating more inequality.

So, for me, it's a case of staying in now and trying to reform it in the hope we can get a democratic socialist government in the near future and then possibly leave (with actual information provided to the public).

Mark my words, if we leave under a Tory government, expect greater inequality, a rise in racism and fascist thought, the collapse of the NHS and all the social provisions in society and a massive reduction in food and environmental conditions.

 

[rangercol]

Is this you, Col?

/BDquote/
Some of the people who voted to leave the EU really do want to fall off the cliff, have the quickest, cleanest break possible and then deal with the aftermath of the pain it will give the country. Some are insulated from future pain by their wealth and position, of course - and we know who some of those people are. Others are prepared to suffer a little to shape the country into the country they want - and make others suffer with them.
/endBDquote/

If this is you, then yes, I did mean you and people who want the same as you. Your comment above suggests that you're in this group.

/Colquote/
The problem with a vote on the kind of brexit is that, every version I've seen is designed to split the leave vote, with 2nd choices etc.
/endColquote/

We had a referendum to choose between leave or stay. I'd like a democratic consultation with the people to see what form the leaving should take and what our future relationship with the EU27 should be. No-one has asked me. The amount of argument about it so far clearly shows that we don't have a consensus in the country about how it should be done. The 2016 referendum wasn't it. To try and claim otherwise is just plain incorrect.

People who want a clean break, No Deal and the damage people say it brings to the economy of the country, will never agree to a referendum about the type of future arrangement - because they know they would not get the result they want. The majority of the country does not support it. When 48% didn't want to leave the EU at all, how could it possibly be the winner?

So I may have my say on forums like this, but I haven't had my democratic say in the form of a referendum that asks everyone that question.

But I know that referendum will never happen. It's too late in the day and parliament doesn't have the guts to try. If you're one of the No Deal people, you stand a good chance of getting it. Just don't do it in my name. It doesn't have my support.

This is an expensive, painful way to learn that democracy needs to be taken seriously, and that "winner takes all" is a temporary thing that ultimately fails everyone.

See my answer to Stan to see what I'd like.
I don't agree that we'd "fall off a cliff" with no deal.
We've been in the EU all my adult life "against my wishes". Looks like we'll hopefully be out soon "against your wishes".

To quote Stan again, tough titties.
Life isn't always fair.

Again.....How would you word this second referendum?

 

[Goldhawk-Road]

Is this you, Col?

/BDquote/
Some of the people who voted to leave the EU really do want to fall off the cliff, have the quickest, cleanest break possible and then deal with the aftermath of the pain it will give the country. Some are insulated from future pain by their wealth and position, of course - and we know who some of those people are. Others are prepared to suffer a little to shape the country into the country they want - and make others suffer with them.
/endBDquote/

If this is you, then yes, I did mean you and people who want the same as you. Your comment above suggests that you're in this group.

/Colquote/
The problem with a vote on the kind of brexit is that, every version I've seen is designed to split the leave vote, with 2nd choices etc.
/endColquote/

We had a referendum to choose between leave or stay. I'd like a democratic consultation with the people to see what form the leaving should take and what our future relationship with the EU27 should be. No-one has asked me. The amount of argument about it so far clearly shows that we don't have a consensus in the country about how it should be done. The 2016 referendum wasn't it. To try and claim otherwise is just plain incorrect.

People who want a clean break, No Deal and the damage people say it brings to the economy of the country, will never agree to a referendum about the type of future arrangement - because they know they would not get the result they want. The majority of the country does not support it. When 48% didn't want to leave the EU at all, how could it possibly be the winner?

So I may have my say on forums like this, but I haven't had my democratic say in the form of a referendum that asks everyone that question.

But I know that referendum will never happen. It's too late in the day and parliament doesn't have the guts to try. If you're one of the No Deal people, you stand a good chance of getting it. Just don't do it in my name. It doesn't have my support.

This is an expensive, painful way to learn that democracy needs to be taken seriously, and that "winner takes all" is a temporary thing that ultimately fails everyone.

Every time someone quotes or posts "falling off a cliff", my eyes glaze over and I stop reading. Because using the phrase is a dull excuse for not addressing the UK's relationship with the EU under managed WTO rules, which is a much more useful intellectual exercise.

Keep using the cliff-edge phrase, BD, but be aware you're only preaching to other stubborn Remainers

 

[TheBigDipper]

See my answer to Stan to see what I'd like.
I don't agree that we'd "fall off a cliff" with no deal.
We've been in the EU all my adult life "against my wishes". Looks like we'll hopefully be out soon "against your wishes".

To quote Stan again, tough titties.
Life isn't always fair.

Again.....How would you word this second referendum?

I told you, I'm not even going to try now I've realised it doesn't matter. You've won. Enjoy it.

 

[TheBigDipper]

Every time someone quotes or posts "falling off a cliff", my eyes glaze over and I stop reading. Because using the phrase is a dull excuse for not addressing the UK's relationship with the EU under managed WTO rules, which is a much more useful intellectual exercise.

Keep using the cliff-edge phrase, BD, but be aware you're only preaching to other stubborn Remainers

Come on, we all know you don't stop reading...

I appreciate you'd like to normalise the idea that WTO is the way to go so people don't even question it. I think your usual crew will stay onside.

 

[Goldhawk-Road]

Come on, we all know you don't stop reading...

I appreciate you'd like to normalise the idea that WTO is the way to go so people don't even question it. I think your usual crew will stay onside.

The problem is "cliff edge" tends to precede the old stuff being churned out about Leavers not knowing what they were doing, the urgent need for a people's referendum (suggesting voters in the 2016 referendum weren't people) and trotting out all the Project Fear stuff. I've heard Starmer supporters interviewed and they use the phrase in virtually every other sentence, in place of analysing the situation

It's not a question of normalising WTO. That may well be where we're headed. If you think it's a cliff edge, tell us why, rather than using jaded imagery. There are papers coming out to help you. The government is about to put one out, which looks like an extension of Project Fear, in order for May to push the Chequers deal. Rees-Mogg's group is putting one out which will be interesting. Farage is campaigning against Chequers for Leave Means Leave. Attend his battle bus, BD, and report back to us!

Increasing numbers of Tory voters are moving towards, or returning to, UKIP. If Tory MP's think this is a real possibility, Theresa May will lose parliamentary support fast. Boris is waiting in the wings and Sajid Javid threw his hat into the ring yesterday

 

[DT’s Socks]

I told you, I'm not even going to try now I've realised it doesn't matter. You've won. Enjoy it.

They won fully accepted
But the ‘they’are the problem they are not united as there seems to be a lot of different levels of opinion to the exit deal

How do we leave is the question?
There are massive divides here
The remainers seem solid enough to me
The Brexiteers are suffering already not the remainers their choice was easy ... remain

So any talk of a second vote is pointless

It’s their bag let them carry it

 

[DT’s Socks]

The problem is "cliff edge" tends to precede the old stuff being churned out about Leavers not knowing what they were doing, the urgent need for a people's referendum (suggesting voters in the 2016 referendum weren't people) and trotting out all the Project Fear stuff. I've heard Starmer supporters interviewed and they use the phrase in virtually every other sentence, in place of analysing the situation

It's not a question of normalising WTO. That may well be where we're headed. If you think it's a cliff edge, tell us why, rather than using jaded imagery. There are papers coming out to help you. The government is about to put one out, which looks like an extension of Project Fear, in order for May to push the Chequers deal. Rees-Mogg's group is putting one out which will be interesting. Farage is campaigning against Chequers for Leave Means Leave. Attend his battle bus, BD, and report back to us!

Increasing numbers of Tory voters are moving towards, or returning to, UKIP. If Tory MP's think this is a real possibility, Theresa May will lose parliamentary support fast. Boris is waiting in the wings and Sajid Javid threw his hat into the ring yesterday

Increasing numbers ? 2 from 0
UKIP cannot be even mentioned as a choice
They are ****ing idiots

 

[Goldhawk-Road]

Increasing numbers ? 2 from 0
UKIP cannot be even mentioned as a choice
They are ****ing idiots

The theory is this - The Tories have only a slim majority. If their MP's think that voters are defecting to UKIP, it will colour their views on whether to support Chequers or go for WTO, and they may well start falling in behind the latter. The one thing that has held May up, is that she has a lot of Remain MP's. But if they think they're out of sink with their part of the electorate, they may put career before principals...

 

[Stroller]

The theory is this - The Tories have only a slim majority. If their MP's think that voters are defecting to UKIP, it will colour their views on whether to support Chequers or go for WTO, and they may well start falling in behind the latter. The one thing that has held May up, is that she has a lot of Remain MP's. But if they think they're out of sink with their part of the electorate, they may put career before principals...

Get rid of May and they might get Corbyn.

 

[rangercol]

I told you, I'm not even going to try now I've realised it doesn't matter. You've won. Enjoy it.

Ok mate.
I honestly don't see it as winning and I've already said that it would be fair for the 48% to be considered, as they are a high percentage of the voters.
It is comments like, "You won, enjoy it" which come across as rather condescending from some remainers.
However, I can't lie when I say that I want us completely free from the EU to be an independent nation.
Anyway, we go round in circles. I won't convince you and you won't convince me mate.

 

[TheBigDipper]

Ok mate.
I honestly don't see it as winning and I've already said that it would be fair for the 48% to be considered, as they are a high percentage of the voters.
It is comments like, "You won, enjoy it" which come across as rather condescending from some remainers.
However, I can't lie when I say that I want us completely free from the EU to be an independent nation.
Anyway, we go round in circles. I won't convince you and you won't convince me mate.

IMHO, even if someone really is being perceived as being condescending (and I never have been - even when you once accused me of it), it isn't a decent reason for anyone to choose a course of action. I wouldn't choose tea over coffee just because I don't like the way the coffee drinker speaks to me.

You come across as a decent bloke with good intentions. I respect that. This isn't personal between me, you or anyone else here. I just don't agree with the proposed course of action. I also feel disenfranchised now I'm the wrong side of the vote. No-one is looking after the 48% or the non voters. Good people are being walked into something I believe they'll regret when they fully understand how they've been lied to and where they ultimately find themselves. It's not the first time in history that has happened to a country and it probably won't be the last.

I could, of course, be totally wrong. We'll see. If it all goes swimmingly well, I'll be the first to stand up and say so.

Score Update: Still 0-0 after 21 minutes...

 

[Deleted.......]

The theory is this - The Tories have only a slim majority. If their MP's think that voters are defecting to UKIP, it will colour their views on whether to support Chequers or go for WTO, and they may well start falling in behind the latter. The one thing that has held May up, is that she has a lot of Remain MP's. But if they think they're out of sink with their part of the electorate, they may put career before principals...

Well of course we've seen this happen before - Cameron was terrified of Ukip at the 2015 election, promised a referendum and blew them out of the water. They were 10/1 for an overall majority

I think the same could happen if Farage makes a comeback in any way shape or form. Could mean a further lurch to the right which I personally wouldn't welcome. For the benefit of the doubt I don't include Brexit in that thinking as its not a left wing right wing issue in my (and Staines') opinion!

 

[rangercol]

IMHO, even if someone really is being perceived as being condescending (and I never have been - even when you once accused me of it), it isn't a decent reason for anyone to choose a course of action. I wouldn't choose tea over coffee just because I don't like the way the coffee drinker speaks to me.

You come across as a decent bloke with good intentions. I respect that. This isn't personal between me, you or anyone else here. I just don't agree with the proposed course of action. I also feel disenfranchised now I'm the wrong side of the vote. No-one is looking after the 48% or the non voters. Good people are being walked into something I believe they'll regret when they fully understand how they've been lied to and where they ultimately find themselves. It's not the first time in history that has happened to a country and it probably won't be the last.

I could, of course, be totally wrong. We'll see. If it all goes swimmingly well, I'll be the first to stand up and say so.

Score Update: Still 0-0 after 21 minutes...

Bit confused by a lot of that. Best leave it mate.

 

[GoldhawkRoad]

Get rid of May and they might get Corbyn.

May be, but Corbyn's doing his best to help the Tories out by making himself unelectable

 

[GoldhawkRoad]

Well of course we've seen this happen before - Cameron was terrified of Ukip at the 2015 election, promised a referendum and blew them out of the water. They were 10/1 for an overall majority

I think the same could happen if Farage makes a comeback in any way shape or form. Could mean a further lurch to the right which I personally wouldn't welcome. For the benefit of the doubt I don't include Brexit in that thinking as its not a left wing right wing issue in my (and Staines') opinion!

Farage is definitly politically active now. If Chequers goes through but weakened, he' ll take over UKIP and could do well.