Off Topic The Politics Thread

[ELLERS]

I like the idea for hereditary diseases but 'designer humans'?

 

[ELLERS]

Vote Leave broke the spending rules. So there ought to be a revote anyway.

zzzzzzzzz Come on Oslo be sensible. You are sounding like those bitter fans that wanted us kicked out of the league over Faulingate.

 

[Stroller]

Change of subject, probably no takers.

The Nuffield Council on Bioethics (geneticists,scientists, philosophers, lawyers) reckons that there is no moral bar to having ‘designer’ babies - beyond gene editing to prevent inherited disease, including ‘improvements’ to anything you like, I guess. Enhanced intelligence potential, resistance to disease etc etc. I agree. We have reached a stage where we can engineer our own evolution, outstanding. And anyone who has a filling, a hernia mesh or a hip replacement is already a cyborg, not entirely human, with no moral qualms.

But they add the rider ‘provided it’s in the wider interests of society’ which is a cop out. Because it’s pretty evident that this technology will not be available to everyone, at least for the foreseeable future, only those few who can afford it. And creating a new breed of enhanced humans who are by definition better than non enhanced standard humans in most cases cannot be in the wider interests of society.

“you gotta make way for the homo superior” D. Bowie.

So those with inherited wealth could also be given enhanced intelligence - the opposite of what we seem to have currently. Perhaps they could identify an empathy gene and enhance that.

 

[ELLERS]

The life of money-making is one undertaken under compulsion, and wealth is evidently not the good we are seeking; for it is merely useful and for the sake of something else. Aristotle

 

[Goldhawk-Road]

Genuine question here lads and ladies.
Are you/do you think you are getting what you voted for?

Premature. Ask me next March

 

[Goldhawk-Road]

Vote Leave broke the spending rules. So there ought to be a revote anyway.

According to allegations by a Remain dominated committee

 

[West London Willy]

According to allegations by a Remain dominated committee

According to the rules.

 

[Uber_Hoop]

Change of subject, probably no takers.

The Nuffield Council on Bioethics (geneticists,scientists, philosophers, lawyers) reckons that there is no moral bar to having ‘designer’ babies - beyond gene editing to prevent inherited disease, including ‘improvements’ to anything you like, I guess. Enhanced intelligence potential, resistance to disease etc etc. I agree. We have reached a stage where we can engineer our own evolution, outstanding. And anyone who has a filling, a hernia mesh or a hip replacement is already a cyborg, not entirely human, with no moral qualms.

But they add the rider ‘provided it’s in the wider interests of society’ which is a cop out. Because it’s pretty evident that this technology will not be available to everyone, at least for the foreseeable future, only those few who can afford it. And creating a new breed of enhanced humans who are by definition better than non enhanced standard humans in most cases cannot be in the wider interests of society.

“you gotta make way for the homo superior” D. Bowie.

Shall we miss out the debate entirely and go straight to Godwin’s?

 

[Uber_Hoop]

The life of money-making is one undertaken under compulsion, and wealth is evidently not the good we are seeking; for it is merely useful and for the sake of something else. Aristotle

Yeah, but he was a bugger for the bottle.

 

[Steelmonkey]

Gattaca. No thanks.

You must log in or register to see media

Not a world most of us would be comfortable in.

 

[Turkish" Premier" Hoops]

Vote Leave broke the spending rules. So there ought to be a revote anyway.

Maybe so but Remain broke far more and if leave get fined for overspending, then surely remain must be fined more for spending at least a 3rd more, oh hang on, the committee who deals out the fines are all remainers or labour and Lib Dem has beens, hardly a ringing endorsement me thinks.

 

[bobmid]

I don't think anyone is really a winner tbh. The 48% didn't get what they wanted and the 52% likewise. It is sad that a cross-party agreement wasn't sorted. for Brexit to really succeed we needed unity and that has not happened.
You have to remember bob I was a remainer until I read up on the EU then disliked how they treated the UK. Since then I have seen how they have acted and so glad I voted out. I think people get mixed up with Europe and the EU. I am voting out of a dying organisation who cares nothing for the average person and not a group of countries. The EU is only interested in big business. Look at the youth unemployment in Italy? They have done nothing to help it out.
I have seen many European companies leave the UK and relocate in France and Germany. This was years before the referendum. We really were not part of the European vision, we are just big payers into the club and get nothing out of it.
Remember over time we proposed 27 amendments...and all 27 were rejected. How can you work with people who are like that?
The EU has shot themselves in the foot because without us the will be in trouble (this is probably be reciprocated to a point). The reason they are making it impossible to leave is because it will be the beginning of the end for it.
PS
If the EU had listened to us and helped us out when Cameron went there instead of saying 'Non' then I probably would have remained. Brexit is really down to them because they will not change. I wouldn't blame farmers/fisherman or the people that voted for immigration reasons, I blame the EU.

It was a genuine question mate no trickery involved. It does lead to another question though...which I think you may already know

 

[sb_73]

designer babies you say... The premise sounds good as a science geek.

In practice i don't think i'm in favour of this........

Might mean we produce more idiots like elon musk

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-asia-44846945

Gattaca. No thanks.

Do you think we have a choice whether it happens or not? Gattaca is a work of fiction as far as I know.

So those with inherited wealth could also be given enhanced intelligence - the opposite of what we seem to have currently. Perhaps they could identify an empathy gene and enhance that.

Not every wealthy person has inherited their money Strolls. A couple won it on the lotto. And many worked for it. Many people in the world don’t have access to something like a hip replacement, if they need one, but you do*. Exactly the same principle if fairness is the issue.

You must log in or register to see media

Not a world most of us would be comfortable in.

As above, we probably won’t have a choice.

I’m all for it. Standard Homo sapiens has created the **** up we have now, time for an upgrade. We’re still operating on iOS 6. And anyway, even homo superior will be puny compared to the machines that will be around soon, with the ability to create new and better versions of themselves. Brilliant. Us meat sacks will one day be totally redundant.

If you are interested in this kind of thing I recommend you read Homo Deus by Yuval Noah Harari. Nothing is written in stone of course.

*or maybe you don’t. I read today that the NHS is rationing hernia operations, so that only people whose condition has got so bad that they can’t work or look after themselves will get one. If true this is a policy of truly mind numbing stupidity.

 

[ELLERS]

It was a genuine question mate no trickery involved. It does lead to another question though...which I think you may already know

What?

 

[Stroller]

Not every wealthy person has inherited their money Strolls. A couple won it on the lotto. And many worked for it. Many people in the world don’t have access to something like a hip replacement, if they need one, but you do*. Exactly the same principle if fairness is the issue.

But I didn't say wealthy, I said those with inherited wealth. The point being that their parents would be able endow them with enhanced intelligence and health as well as wealth that they would not have to work for. This shouldn't be something that you can buy for your offspring. As I said, enhanced empathy would be more beneficial to the common good than enhanced health or intelligence, in my opinion.

 

[West London Willy]

Yes Gattaca is a work of fiction. For now.

Science fiction used to include men going to the moon. People talking on phones not connected by a big wire. Video-conferencing. Sat-nav (in Goldfinger even, a far more basic sat-nav than you have on your phone is touted as one of Bond's best gadgets).

What is science fiction today generally becomes science fact tomorrow.

You offer parents the ability to design their babies, and you'll get Gattaca. The wealthy will choose to enhance intelligence, fitness, longevity, looks, etc. and the poor will be left behind. Who's gonna get the top jobs? Not the ugly gimp with the gammy leg, but the Adonis with an IQ of 170 and a long life of health and productivity in front of them.

Gattaca.

So still - no thanks.

 

[Steelmonkey]

But I didn't say wealthy, I said those with inherited wealth. The point being that their parents would be able endow them with enhanced intelligence and health as well as wealth that they would not have to work for. This shouldn't be something that you can buy for your offspring. As I said, enhanced empathy would be more beneficial to the common good than enhanced health or intelligence, in my opinion.

And then how far down the line do we go til we get into mutant/x-men territory? I'm not on about the ability to fly etc, but enhanced perception, super athletesism, super strength? Some dubious world powers could/will develop super soldiers, impervious to pain etc - yes, I know it's sci-fi at the moment, but the rate that technology is evolving these are very real applications of gene modification.

On the same lines, there was a report today suggesting that AI will enhance job prospects instead of reducing employment, alhough the sectors that humans would be employed in would be radically different to that of today...

AI will create as many jobs as it displaces - report - BBC News https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-44849492

 

[sb_73]

But I didn't say wealthy, I said those with inherited wealth. The point being that their parents would be able endow them with enhanced intelligence and health as well as wealth that they would not have to work for. This shouldn't be something that you can buy for your offspring. As I said, enhanced empathy would be more beneficial to the common good than enhanced health or intelligence, in my opinion.

I get your point, but just to be clear you are making a distinction between what parents with inherited wealth do for their kids and what parents who have generated their own wealth do? Of course parents (however wealthy or otherwise) do everything they can to give their children an unearned leg up now, beyond breeding itself it’s just about the most primal instinct that there is, even stronger than the community instinct.

Not directed at you, but I find it really interesting the emotions that this topic raises, essentially about ‘fairness’. But nothing is ‘fair’ now, and we do little or nothing about it. I think it’s the science aspect that does it.

And then how far down the line do we go til we get into mutant/x-men territory? I'm not on about the ability to fly etc, but enhanced perception, super athletesism, super strength? Some dubious world powers could/will develop super soldiers, impervious to pain etc - yes, I know it's sci-fi at the moment, but the rate that technology is evolving these are very real applications of gene modification.

On the same lines, there was a report today suggesting that AI will enhance job prospects instead of reducing employment, alhough the sectors that humans would be employed in would be radically different to that of today...

AI will create as many jobs as it displaces - report - BBC News https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-44849492

Several thousand years ago there were a number of different types of humans around, with the Neanderthals the most commonly known. There were also many more species of big animals - mega fauna. In pretty short order Homo sapiens wiped out all ALL of the competing types of humans and nearly all of the mega fauna - the archeological record shows that soon after sapiens migrated into an area, all the other big stuff died out. Now we are creating the means of our own extinction, and I think it’s pretty neat, with a certain circular elegance. We’re nothing special, just another species, albeit a very destructive one. (See Harari’s first book, Sapiens).

The timescale of that report into AI is puny. The impact of this stuff will be constant but hard to perceive. I wish some of it were here now and available to me - gene modification to give me immunity against cancer, heart disease, dementia, and a variety of mental illnesses I would gladly pay for. If you can throw in better eyesight and strength, why not? And I would suggest that most parents would want them for their kids as well.

 

[West London Willy]

What you're describing, in essence, is the US Health System writ large. We already see a very definite two-tier health experience over there, where if you're wealthy or have a good job, you can basically get what you need when you need it, but you also have others who can't afford to even fill a prescription. And yes - people are dying over there for lack of the price of a generic prescription drug.

When you start offering choices, the rich and the poor get further apart.

The ONLY way that this could be prevented - even for a short while - is to ban any private medical procedures relating to gene manipulation, and make it available only though the NHS or similar. Paid for by everyone through taxes, and available to everyone. And we all know how likely that is...

 

[BobbyD]

I get your point, but just to be clear you are making a distinction between what parents with inherited wealth do for their kids and what parents who have generated their own wealth do? Of course parents (however wealthy or otherwise) do everything they can to give their children an unearned leg up now, beyond breeding itself it’s just about the most primal instinct that there is, even stronger than the community instinct.

Not directed at you, but I find it really interesting the emotions that this topic raises, essentially about ‘fairness’. But nothing is ‘fair’ now, and we do little or nothing about it. I think it’s the science aspect that does it.

Several thousand years ago there were a number of different types of humans around, with the Neanderthals the most commonly known. There was also many more species of big animals - mega fauna. In pretty short order Homo sapiens wiped out all ALL of the competing types of humans and nearly all of the mega fauna - the archeological record shows that soon after sapiens migrated into an area, all the other bug stuff died out. Now we are creating the means of our own extinction, and I think it’s pretty neat, with a certain circular elegance. We’re nothing special, just another species, albeit a very destructive one. (See Harari’s first book, Sapiens).

The timescale of that report into AI is puny. The impact of this stuff will be constant but hard to perceive. I wish some of it were here now and available to me - gene modification to give me immunity against cancer, heart disease, dementia, and a variety of mental illnesses I would gladly pay for. If you can throw in better eyesight and strength, why not? And I would suggest that most parents would want them for their kids as well.

that's interesting to know......

I already knew humans were the most destructive species on the planet. Agent Smith was correct...

It's something that often causes mixed emotions in me. I feel sad when i read articles of people dying, get angry at murders and often give to tramps and buskers. At the same time, i do feel that we are overpopulating and that all the mechanisms for controlling our numbers have effectively been controlled (war, disease, disasters, sustenance) and that i shouldn't feel sad bad because we are slowing killing our world

I like the last part, i would deffo pay to potentially live forever!!!!!!!!