Off Topic The Politics Thread

[sb_73]

I don't see the point of it.
It will be an even higher leave vote next time. We just need to get out and move on. It's just another attempt to derail the will of the people.

I think it’s moved beyond sneaky remainers trying to subvert the ‘will of 52% of those who voted’ (let’s be accurate) Ellers. We are now in constitutional crisis territory - the governments cave in on the hard Brexit amendments yesterday showed that they are incapable of getting their policy through parliament, and even with that cave in they had tiny majorities because of 3 Labour rebels and two Lib Dem’s - Cable and Farron - not voting. Meanwhile, on non Brexit matters, less than half the number of laws and amendments to laws have been seen through by this government than previous ones over the same period 2,000 something v 4,000 something. We are not being governed, we just have consultations on everything under the sun which are then quietly forgotten about. With a crippled government and a parliament in deadlock you either need a referendum to give definitive guidance to parliament on how to act on the issue which is creating the deadlock, or a general election. I think the latter is more relevant, because it would also provide a chance to see if a party can get a proper majority to see a policy platform through (even if Brexit is sorted the current numbers mean the government is neutered) or a less toxic coalition than Tory/DUP can be formed.

But either option is irrelevant now, if we are running to the current schedule there is not enough time to organise either for the result to have an impact on the deal with the EU, which has to be concluded in October. So there are two potential outcomes - a no deal Brexit of the worst kind, unplanned and unwanted by both sides, simply timed out because the UK could not get its act together, or more likely we ask for an extension to the article 50 deadline so we can buy some time. And a referendum or an election during the time we buy is a bit more probable, I think.

The fundamental flaw with the original referendum is that the result was ambiguous, open to interpretation, because ‘leave’ was never defined in a single, clear way.

PS our friend in France (some of the time) votes stay in.

 

[West London Willy]

The fundamental flaw with the original referendum is that the result was ambiguous, open to interpretation, because ‘leave’ was never defined in a single, clear way.

Said this all along. 'Remain' was clear, understandable, and could be verified easily. 'Leave' was different depending on who you spoke to and what they thought it was. I can guarantee that if you got all the Leave voters on here to write down exactly what it was they voted for - in detail - you'd have no real agreement on anything but vague generalisms of 'sovereignty', or 'immigration', or 'unelected bureaucrats', or that kind of thing. Nobody voting Leave even gave the Irish Border thing a thought, if they are honest. and yet it's one of the most fundamental issues facing us.

 

[ELLERS]

1. Erm.............

Erm... just look at the Lisbon treaty where Brown sold out his country....A few more than 3. In fact look it up and see for yourself instead of trying to act smart.

 

[ELLERS]

I think it’s moved beyond sneaky remainers trying to subvert the ‘will of 52% of those who voted’ (let’s be accurate) Ellers. We are now in constitutional crisis territory - the governments cave in on the hard Brexit amendments yesterday showed that they are incapable of getting their policy through parliament, and even with that cave in they had tiny majorities because of 3 Labour rebels and two Lib Dem’s - Cable and Farron - not voting. Meanwhile, on non Brexit matters, less than half the number of laws and amendments to laws have been seen through by this government than previous ones over the same period 2,000 something v 4,000 something. We are not being governed, we just have consultations on everything under the sun which are then quietly forgotten about. With a crippled government and a parliament in deadlock you either need a referendum to give definitive guidance to parliament on how to act on the issue which is creating the deadlock, or a general election. I think the latter is more relevant, because it would also provide a chance to see if a party can get a proper majority to see a policy platform through (even if Brexit is sorted the current numbers mean the government is neutered) or a less toxic coalition than Tory/DUP can be formed.

But either option is irrelevant now, if we are running to the current schedule there is not enough time to organise either for the result to have an impact on the deal with the EU, which has to be concluded in October. So there are two potential outcomes - a no deal Brexit of the worst kind, unplanned and unwanted by both sides, simply timed out because the UK could not get its act together, or more likely we ask for an extension to the article 50 deadline so we can buy some time. And a referendum or an election during the time we buy is a bit more probable, I think.

The fundamental flaw with the original referendum is that the result was ambiguous, open to interpretation, because ‘leave’ was never defined in a single, clear way.


PS our friend in France (some of the time) votes stay in.

No extension as that is an excuse to keep us in.
If you want another referendum then we have already voted to leave. The people have made it clear they want out so I reckon if it happens then we should have 2 options Hard or soft Brexit nothing else. That's fair.

 

[ELLERS]

Said this all along. 'Remain' was clear, understandable, and could be verified easily. 'Leave' was different depending on who you spoke to and what they thought it was. I can guarantee that if you got all the Leave voters on here to write down exactly what it was they voted for - in detail - you'd have no real agreement on anything but vague generalisms of 'sovereignty', or 'immigration', or 'unelected bureaucrats', or that kind of thing. Nobody voting Leave even gave the Irish Border thing a thought, if they are honest. and yet it's one of the most fundamental issues facing us.

Blah blah blah Leave meant leave get over it. Let's see if we can find any other excuses. You also never seem to mention about what staying actually means? Brown sold us out (plus others) signed us up to things that we didn't get a say on yet you remainers never mention that do you? Same old remoaner arguments doing the rounds again. Boring now.

 

[bobmid]

Blah blah blah Leave meant leave get over it. Let's see if we can find any other excuses. You also never seem to mention about what staying actually means? Brown sold us out (plus others) signed us up to things that we didn't get a say on yet you remainers never mention that do you? Same old remoaner arguments doing the rounds again. Boring now.

It's all irrelevant mate really leavers have got what they voted for. Simples

 

[bobmid]

Erm... just look at the Lisbon treaty where Brown sold out his country....A few more than 3. In fact look it up and see for yourself instead of trying to act smart.

I'm not smart really Ellers nor can I act. My old drama teacher could confirm that

 

[kiwiqpr]

What's pee tape

 

[bobmid]

Genuine question here lads and ladies.
Are you/do you think you are getting what you voted for?

 

[ELLERS]

I'm not smart really Ellers nor can I act. My old drama teacher could confirm that

I was good at drama at school! cool.

 

[bobmid]

I was good at drama at school! cool.

Could imagine you as quite the thespian

 

[bobmid]

Genuine question here lads and ladies.
Are you/do you think you are getting what you voted for?

Any takers?

 

[ELLERS]

It's all irrelevant mate really leavers have got what they voted for. Simples

We haven't left yet so that is not exactly correct. We won the vote but now too many problems that should have been sorted at the beginning. It doesn't help that the PM is a 'remainer' and doesn't really believe in Brexit.

 

[ELLERS]

Could imagine you as quite the thespian

I was okay.

 

[sb_73]

Change of subject, probably no takers.

The Nuffield Council on Bioethics (geneticists,scientists, philosophers, lawyers) reckons that there is no moral bar to having ‘designer’ babies - beyond gene editing to prevent inherited disease, including ‘improvements’ to anything you like, I guess. Enhanced intelligence potential, resistance to disease etc etc. I agree. We have reached a stage where we can engineer our own evolution, outstanding. And anyone who has a filling, a hernia mesh or a hip replacement is already a cyborg, not entirely human, with no moral qualms.

But they add the rider ‘provided it’s in the wider interests of society’ which is a cop out. Because it’s pretty evident that this technology will not be available to everyone, at least for the foreseeable future, only those few who can afford it. And creating a new breed of enhanced humans who are by definition better than non enhanced standard humans in most cases cannot be in the wider interests of society.

“you gotta make way for the homo superior” D. Bowie.

 

[BobbyD]

Change of subject, probably no takers.

The Nuffield Council on Bioethics (geneticists,scientists, philosophers, lawyers) reckons that there is no moral bar to having ‘designer’ babies - beyond gene editing to prevent inherited disease, including ‘improvements’ to anything you like, I guess. Enhanced intelligence potential, resistance to disease etc etc. I agree. We have reached a stage where we can engineer our own evolution, outstanding. And anyone who has a filling, a hernia mesh or a hip replacement is already a cyborg, not entirely human, with no moral qualms.

But they add the rider ‘provided it’s in the wider interests of society’ which is a cop out. Because it’s pretty evident that this technology will not be available to everyone, at least for the foreseeable future, only those few who can afford it. And creating a new breed of enhanced humans who are by definition better than non enhanced standard humans in most cases cannot be in the wider interests of society.

“you gotta make way for the homo superior” D. Bowie.

designer babies you say... The premise sounds good as a science geek.

In practice i don't think i'm in favour of this........

Might mean we produce more idiots like elon musk

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-asia-44846945

 

[West London Willy]

Change of subject, probably no takers.

The Nuffield Council on Bioethics (geneticists,scientists, philosophers, lawyers) reckons that there is no moral bar to having ‘designer’ babies - beyond gene editing to prevent inherited disease, including ‘improvements’ to anything you like, I guess. Enhanced intelligence potential, resistance to disease etc etc. I agree. We have reached a stage where we can engineer our own evolution, outstanding. And anyone who has a filling, a hernia mesh or a hip replacement is already a cyborg, not entirely human, with no moral qualms.

But they add the rider ‘provided it’s in the wider interests of society’ which is a cop out. Because it’s pretty evident that this technology will not be available to everyone, at least for the foreseeable future, only those few who can afford it. And creating a new breed of enhanced humans who are by definition better than non enhanced standard humans in most cases cannot be in the wider interests of society.

“you gotta make way for the homo superior” D. Bowie.

Gattaca. No thanks.

 

[West London Willy]

Any takers?

No. Certainly not getting what I voted for.

 

[ELLERS]

Any takers?

I don't think anyone is really a winner tbh. The 48% didn't get what they wanted and the 52% likewise. It is sad that a cross-party agreement wasn't sorted. for Brexit to really succeed we needed unity and that has not happened.
You have to remember bob I was a remainer until I read up on the EU then disliked how they treated the UK. Since then I have seen how they have acted and so glad I voted out. I think people get mixed up with Europe and the EU. I am voting out of a dying organisation who cares nothing for the average person and not a group of countries. The EU is only interested in big business. Look at the youth unemployment in Italy? They have done nothing to help it out.
I have seen many European companies leave the UK and relocate in France and Germany. This was years before the referendum. We really were not part of the European vision, we are just big payers into the club and get nothing out of it.
Remember over time we proposed 27 amendments...and all 27 were rejected. How can you work with people who are like that?
The EU has shot themselves in the foot because without us the will be in trouble (this is probably be reciprocated to a point). The reason they are making it impossible to leave is because it will be the beginning of the end for it.
PS
If the EU had listened to us and helped us out when Cameron went there instead of saying 'Non' then I probably would have remained. Brexit is really down to them because they will not change. I wouldn't blame farmers/fisherman or the people that voted for immigration reasons, I blame the EU.

 

[QPR Oslo]

Vote Leave broke the spending rules. So there ought to be a revote anyway.