Off Topic The Politics Thread

[Goldhawk-Road]

I'm glad you replied Goldie, cheers. I agree that he belittles and continually interrupts his callers, who aren't as eloquent as he is. So what argument would you challenge him with?

He talks about leavers really only wanting blue passports, control of fishing and sovereignty. When callers tell him they want to 'make their own laws and legislation', he asks which EU laws they are unhappy about and no one can answer. How would you rip him a new one?

I'd quote to Arrogant O'Brien the following extract from Boris Johnson's resignation letter, Woody. EU responses for the need of (in this case, life saving) laws move slower than an oil tanker, and if it doesn't suit the lobbying multinational companies, it probably won't ever get through:-

"It now seems that the opening bid of our negotiations involves accepting that we are not actually going to be able to make our own laws. Indeed we seem to have gone backwards since the last Chequers meeting in February, when I described my frustrations, as Mayor of London, in trying to protect cyclists from juggernauts. We had wanted to lower the cabin windows to improve visibility; and even though such designs were already on the market, and even though there had been a horrific spate of deaths, mainly of female cyclists, we were told that we had to wait for the EU to legislate on the matter.

So at the previous Chequers session we thrashed out an elaborate procedure for divergence from EU rules. But even that now seems to have been taken off the table, and there is in fact no easy UK right of initiative. Yet if Brexit is to mean anything, it must surely give ministers and Parliament the chance to do things differently to protect the public. If a country cannot pass a law to save the lives of female cyclists - when that proposal is supported at every level of UK government - then I don't see how that country can truly be called independent."

 

[Goldhawk-Road]

I didn’t want to start a separate thread for this, but what a wonderfully happy ending to the story of the Thai boys football team stuck in the flooded cave. All out alive. Great credit to all involved in the successful operation and a special mention to Saman Gunan, the heroic diver who sadly lost his life during the operation.

I look forward to the inevitable film!

Does it occur to you, Uber, that the football coach that decided to take the kids 2 1/2 miles into a dangerous tunnel so they could carve their names, may have a lot to answer for, including the life of the diver that was killed. The BBC interviewed the other football coaches celebrating last night, but surely one of their number f*cked up big time

 

[Goldhawk-Road]

Yeah, I know what you meant, but this is what annoys me. Just because you voted Leave, it doesn't mean you should get exactly the kind of Brexit that was in your head when you voted. People voted for all kinds of different reasons and for many different forms of Brexit. Some Leave voters were expecting to stay in the Single Market, some wanted to stay in the Customs Union, some wanted Norway, some Switzerland, and some just wanted to give Cameron and Osborne a kick up the arse. Of course, many also just wanted to walk away from everything, but I get tired of people saying 'this is not what I voted for'. You voted for Brexit and May is offering Brexit. There was no majority for Hard Brexit.

Cameron, Osborne, Gove and Johnson all warned pre-referendum that leaving, meant leaving the Customs Union and Single Market. They did this, among other places, on Andrew Marr's Sunday politics programme on BBC 1. Marr has confirmed this. Cameron's governmental Project Fear brochure sent at great expense to the electorate also warned that we would be out of both.

Is that not clear enough, Strolls?

 

[Stroller]

Cameron, Osborne, Gove and Johnson all warned pre-referendum that leaving, meant leaving the Customs Union and Single Market. They did this, among other places, on Andrew Marr's Sunday politics programme on BBC 1. Marr has confirmed this. Cameron's governmental Project Fear brochure sent at great expense to the electorate also warned that we would be out of both.

Is that not clear enough, Strolls?

Many leave campaigners - including Farage, probably the most influential - were saying the opposite, though. As we now know, we were lied to by both sides. The electorate were in the dark as to what a Leave vote would actually mean and we still don't really know. If we'd been told during the campaign that a very likely outcome would be that it would prove impossible for our government to agree on what kind of deal they were seeking, and that we would wind up walking away from all EU institutions, have no trade deal with the EU and have to re-negotiate the fifty-odd existing trade deals we have with other countries before we could think about striking new ones elsewhere, do you think Leave would still have won? I am still hopeful that May will face down the Brextremists and achieve some kind of deal which protects our jobs and our prosperity. That won't be 'what I voted for' of course, but I will accept it as the least bad outcome. As I said earlier, Leave voters had many different reasons for voting as they did, and many different outcomes in mind. Why do they seem to think that they are each entitled to exactly the outcome that they envisioned, when that is plainly impossible?

 

[West London Willy]

Does it occur to you, Uber, that the football coach that decided to take the kids 2 1/2 miles into a dangerous tunnel so they could carve their names, may have a lot to answer for, including the life of the diver that was killed. The BBC interviewed the other football coaches celebrating last night, but surely one of their number f*cked up big time

What would usually have been a perfectly safe activity was thrown into abject terror and danger by incredibly ferocious rainfall that forced them to retreat deeper and deeper into the cave. Nobody here was at fault, and nobody in Thailand are thinking that - only ambulance-chasing westerners would have that in their heads, safe in their comfy chairs at home.

Just for once, can't you be glad they are all out and OK, and applaud the bravery of the team that rescued them, including the diver that sadly died? We don't need to be looking for the contrary or provocative angle all the time.

 

[West London Willy]

Many leave campaigners - including Farage, probably the most influential - were saying the opposite, though. As we now know, we were lied to by both sides. The electorate were in the dark as to what a Leave vote would actually mean and we still don't really know. If we'd been told during the campaign that a very likely outcome would be that it would prove impossible for our government to agree on what kind of deal they were seeking, and that we would wind up walking away from all EU institutions, have no trade deal with the EU and have to re-negotiate the fifty-odd existing trade deals we have with other countries before we could think about striking new ones elsewhere, do you think Leave would still have won? I am still hopeful that May will face down the Brextremists and achieve some kind of deal which protects our jobs and our prosperity. That won't be 'what I voted for' of course, but I will accept it as the least bad outcome. As I said earlier, Leave voters had many different reasons for voting as they did, and many different outcomes in mind. Why do they seem to think that they are each entitled to exactly the outcome that they envisioned, when that is plainly impossible?

That's all we can hope for - the least bad outcome. because there's no 'good' outcome on the table sadly.

 

[Goldhawk-Road]

What would usually have been a perfectly safe activity was thrown into abject terror and danger by incredibly ferocious rainfall that forced them to retreat deeper and deeper into the cave. Nobody here was at fault, and nobody in Thailand are thinking that - only ambulance-chasing westerners would have that in their heads, safe in their comfy chairs at home.

Just for once, can't you be glad they are all out and OK, and applaud the bravery of the team that rescued them, including the diver that sadly died? We don't need to be looking for the contrary or provocative angle all the time.

What a gold-plated virtue signaller you are Willy. It's a given that I'm incredibly relieved that these kids have survived after such a terrible experience and full marks to those that made the rescue possible. They all deserve medals.

If this is a genuine accident due to forces outside anyone's control, then fine. But presumably there will be some sort of inquest or enquiry, and lessons can be learned. I'll be interested to hear about them even if you want to keep your head up your arse.

 

[Goldhawk-Road]

Many leave campaigners - including Farage, probably the most influential - were saying the opposite, though. As we now know, we were lied to by both sides. The electorate were in the dark as to what a Leave vote would actually mean and we still don't really know. If we'd been told during the campaign that a very likely outcome would be that it would prove impossible for our government to agree on what kind of deal they were seeking, and that we would wind up walking away from all EU institutions, have no trade deal with the EU and have to re-negotiate the fifty-odd existing trade deals we have with other countries before we could think about striking new ones elsewhere, do you think Leave would still have won? I am still hopeful that May will face down the Brextremists and achieve some kind of deal which protects our jobs and our prosperity. That won't be 'what I voted for' of course, but I will accept it as the least bad outcome. As I said earlier, Leave voters had many different reasons for voting as they did, and many different outcomes in mind. Why do they seem to think that they are each entitled to exactly the outcome that they envisioned, when that is plainly impossible?

The thing is, Strolls, I've quoted the Prime Minister and the Chancellor of the Exchequer, and the heads of the Leave campaign, and all four were Cabinet ministers and regarded as highly influential with the public. You've quoted a bloke who isn't even a member of Parliament.

Leave has to mean leaving the Customs Union and Single Market. If not the ramifications for the betrayal of democracy will last a lifetime. Tories and Labour are aware of that. Like you, I hope the EU will accept a suitable compromise so that neither the UK nor EU member states are adversely affected. But the EU are bullies and like to take matters to the eleventh hour in the hope of facing down opposition. As I said yesterday, the White Paper will be incredibly important, because whatever it is, the EU will try to water it down. Barnier has already said "Non" without seeing it. At some point, you have to face these Brussels ****s off. May is heavily influenced by Robbins who is an out and out Europhile, and is known to have deliberately marginalised Davies. Raab won't be so easy. May has to stay tough otherwise I've no doubt she'll go and someone more hardline will come in.

 

[Stroller]

The thing is, Strolls, I've quoted the Prime Minister and the Chancellor of the Exchequer, and the heads of the Leave campaign, and all four were Cabinet ministers and regarded as highly influential with the public. You've quoted a bloke who isn't even a member of Parliament.

The bloke who isn't even a member of Parliament is the reason the referendum happened in the first place.

 

[ELLERS]

Cameron, Osborne, Gove and Johnson all warned pre-referendum that leaving, meant leaving the Customs Union and Single Market. They did this, among other places, on Andrew Marr's Sunday politics programme on BBC 1. Marr has confirmed this. Cameron's governmental Project Fear brochure sent at great expense to the electorate also warned that we would be out of both.

Is that not clear enough, Strolls?

They made it clear that leave meant leave. I still remember Cameron saying so. Clear enough.

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[West London Willy]

What a gold-plated virtue signaller you are Willy. It's a given that I'm incredibly relieved that these kids have survived after such a terrible experience and full marks to those that made the rescue possible. They all deserve medals.

If this is a genuine accident due to forces outside anyone's control, then fine. But presumably there will be some sort of inquest or enquiry, and lessons can be learned. I'll be interested to hear about them even if you want to keep your head up your arse.

Insults already? What a thoroughly abject man you must be. No discussion, just insults.

What you rather pathetically call 'virtue signalling' I call being a decent human being. which means not always jumping straight in with "WHOSE FAULT WAS IT?" when it's pretty clear from the media that there doesn't seem to be any fault that is in any way culpable.

I'll carry on being decent, you carry on assuming the worst. That way you'll never be disappointed, and I'll never feel that life is someone else's fault.

 

[Goldhawk-Road]

The bloke who isn't even a member of Parliament is the reason the referendum happened in the first place.

He was a serial complainant but there have been splits in the Tory Party (and also Labour - let's remember Corbyn is a genuine Brexiteer unlike May) since before Major's "bastards" comment. I don't believe people regarded Farage as a policy maker.

 

[ELLERS]

May has to stay tough otherwise I've no doubt she'll go and someone more hardline will come in.

The EU is worried that a Hardliner will take over. TBH Goldie It may not be a bad idea as TM is weak. I see a vote of no confidence in her leadership happening soon.

I also notice how people have not mentioned how the EU bowed to Trumps demands on Nato. If you stick up to these bullies they will cave in.

 

[ELLERS]

Insults already? What a thoroughly abject man you must be. No discussion, just insults.

What you rather pathetically call 'virtue signalling' I call being a decent human being. which means not always jumping straight in with "WHOSE FAULT WAS IT?" when it's pretty clear from the media that there doesn't seem to be any fault that is in any way culpable.

I'll carry on being decent, you carry on assuming the worst. That way you'll never be disappointed, and I'll never feel that life is someone else's fault.

You said the same about me yesterday? Bloody hell fella you carry on 'being decent'

 

[Goldhawk-Road]

Insults already? What a thoroughly abject man you must be. No discussion, just insults.

What you rather pathetically call 'virtue signalling' I call being a decent human being. which means not always jumping straight in with "WHOSE FAULT WAS IT?" when it's pretty clear from the media that there doesn't seem to be any fault that is in any way culpable.

I'll carry on being decent, you carry on assuming the worst. That way you'll never be disappointed, and I'll never feel that life is someone else's fault.

I'm simply grateful that we have such a decent human being as you on our board, Willy. Thank you for reminding us all what you are. Don't let hubris get in your way.

 

[West London Willy]

I'm simply grateful that we have such a decent human being as you on our board, Willy. Thank you for reminding us all what you are. Don't let hubris get in your way.

You know, one of these days, you'll say something that isn't dripping with bitter malice. I'm not holding my breath...

 

[Goldhawk-Road]

You said the same about me yesterday? Bloody hell fella you carry on 'being decent'

He's a grade 1 virtue signaller, Ellers. A male equivalent of Anthea Turner!

 

[Goldhawk-Road]

You know, one of these days, you'll say something that isn't dripping with bitter malice. I'm not holding my breath...

- and there was I trying to be as nice as you clearly are!

 

[West London Willy]

Ellers / Goldie - do I need to point to the rules where it says 'no personal attacks allowed'? You're going after me, whilst I'm talking about your position on matters.

Please stop with the personal attacks.

 

[Stroller]

He was a serial complainant but there have been splits in the Tory Party (and also Labour - let's remember Corbyn is a genuine Brexiteer unlike May) since before Major's "bastards" comment. I don't believe people regarded Farage as a policy maker.

Come on Goldie, it was the fear of UKIP and Farage that caused Cameron to call the bleeding referendum. Given that distrust of mainstream politicians is now accepted to be one of the main reasons that Leave won out, Farage was probably the most influential individual in the campaign, and he was pointing at Norway and Switzerland as a satisfactory potential outcomes.