Apologies Zenyatta.I mistakenly assumed you were referring to Pour Moi.
Perhaps I should sharpen up reading skills!
Por Moi Retired
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Apologies Zenyatta.I mistakenly assumed you were referring to Pour Moi.
Perhaps I should sharpen up reading skills!
I see that Pour Moi is the first Derby winner to be retired who hasn’t run in a subsequent race for 27 years. Around that time such an occurrence was somewhat regular with Henbit (1980), Golden Fleece (1982) and Secreto (1984) all falling into that category and being whisked off to the breeding shed without another race after Epsom. I suppose that we could ponder how good Pour Moi was, or indeed wasn’t, from now to eternity but ultimately he will fall into the ‘unknown’ category as ultimately it will remain something of an old mystery.
I think this years Arc is heading towards the ‘substandard’ bracket but my choice would be Nathaniel. But will he go as the Champion Stakes seems to be being mooted as an alternative target for Mr Gosden’s star.
I think this years Arc is heading towards the ‘substandard’ bracket but my choice would be Nathaniel. But will he go as the Champion Stakes seems to be being mooted as an alternative target for Mr Gosden’s star.
Eddie....You realy are a plank. If he doesn't have the gears to win an Arc, then how on earth would he beat last years Arc winner in a slowly run race. Surely the slower the race, the more it plays into the hand of the horse with the better turn of foot. You all doubted me when I told you Nathaniel would win the KG, so don't make the same mistake again and oppose him in the Arc. He is the best horse currently entered for the Arc, and he will prove even more superior to Workforce and co off a stronger pace.*
Well Obviously STS the 3yo Autumn colt is going to look physically stronger, than he did in the spring, it's not rocket science. You could say the same about any horse.*
Manduro did not beat DylanThomas on the bridle, *he was all out to win by just over a lengh. Fallon rode Dylan Thomas on 6 occasions and he won on him 6 times. Murtagh rode him on 7 occasions and won on *him twice. The horse would not put it all in for Murtagh, but once Fallon was in the saddle he was a completely different horse. That horse put it all in for Fallon and had Fallon been on him in the race against Manduro I have no doubt that DT would have won
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Well Obviously STS the 3yo Autumn colt is going to look physically stronger, than he did in the spring, it's not rocket science. You could say the same about any horse.*
Manduro did not beat DylanThomas on the bridle, *he was all out to win by just over a lengh. Fallon rode Dylan Thomas on 6 occasions and he won on him 6 times. Murtagh rode him on 7 occasions and won on *him twice. The horse would not put it all in for Murtagh, but once Fallon was in the saddle he was a completely different horse. That horse put it all in for Fallon and had Fallon been on him in the race against Manduro I have no doubt that DT would have won
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Zenyatta.....So the Irish Derby winner, a horse who has won 2 G1s from 4 attempts, is in your words "not a top class animal" You just couldn't make up some of the comments on here"
I love your ridiculous form analysis, how about I have a go at it? Nathaniel beat Workforce, whilst Treasure Beach beat Nathaniel. That means Treasure Beach would have won last years renewal of the Arc. Does that sound stupid? No worse than your analysis of Sevilles form, any donut should be able to work out that the same Seville who finished runner up in the Irish Derby and Grand Prix de Paris, did not show up at York, he was beaten 2 and a half lengths by Al Kazeem, a horse who had won a handicap LTO, by a lengh of a mark of 95. Get real!*
I love your ridiculous form analysis, how about I have a go at it? Nathaniel beat Workforce, whilst Treasure Beach beat Nathaniel. That means Treasure Beach would have won last years renewal of the Arc. Does that sound stupid? No worse than your analysis of Sevilles form, any donut should be able to work out that the same Seville who finished runner up in the Irish Derby and Grand Prix de Paris, did not show up at York, he was beaten 2 and a half lengths by Al Kazeem, a horse who had won a handicap LTO, by a lengh of a mark of 95. Get real!
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Shergar, with some of the statements you have made about racing, you are no position to be calling anyone a plank to be honest. You seem to have a financially warped opinion about Nathanial, and I can assure you that I never once said that I doubted anything before the King George, so mabye that comment should not be directed in a post towards me? You have a very simplistic approach to racing that either does not take into account, or simply, does not comprehend, all possible factors.
"Surely the slower the race, the more it plays into the hands of the horse with a better turn of foot"
This is true, but more importantly, it plays into the hands of the horse who has the best position to strike and exploit the slow pace, when ground is harder to make up because horses are not as tired as they would be, had they been running 1m4 at a championship gallop. The King George was a false race, what dont you understand about that? Workforce was injured and hung across the track, St Nicholas Abbey had no chance from been given a poor tactical ride off a 3m hurdle gallop and we all know what happened to Rewilding. I do not rate Workforce as a serious Arc contender this year, I have said that on numerous occasions before he even ran this year. I do not believe he is as good as his Derby and Arc winning profile suggests he should be. In my opinion, and it is only my opinion, Nathanial lacks the neccessary gears, to win an Arc. Thats my opinion from looking at the horse, I might be wrong but I will stand by my opinion until proven otherwise and that is all you can do in this game.
"Manduro did not beat DylanThomas on the bridle, *he was all out to win by just over a lengh"
All out? You call being nudged out hands and heels, all out?
"Fallon rode Dylan Thomas on 6 occasions and he won on him 6 times. Murtagh rode him on 7 occasions and won on *him twice."
Again, this simplistic approach does not take into account all possible factors. Murtagh won a King George on him, beating Youmzain by 4 lengths. Applying your childlike approach to racing, this would suggest that because Fallon only beat Youmzain a head, Murtagh made the horse 3 3/4 lengths better, which of course, is complete and utter nonsense. On two runs either side of that impressive King George victory, Dylan Thomas was beaten very comfortably, in Group 1 terms, by both Manduro and the 3yo Authorized. Both of these horses stayed 1m4 very well and there is no reason to suggest that had both races been two furlongs further, that those results would have changed. Dylan Thomas did win two Irish Champion stakes afterall, and was more than capable of producing high class performances over 1m2 even if slightly better over 1m4. The ease with which he was beaten by both Manduro and Authorized, both proven 1m4 stayers, suggests that on those day, the extra two furlongs would not have made a blind bit difference to the outcome.
There is absolutely no evidence whatsoever to suggest that Dylan Thomas ran better for Kieran Fallon, than he ran for Johnny Murtagh, the King George, which was one of his best performances, blows this absurd speculation out of the water. The fact that Fallon was unbeaten on him is testement to Fallon, but completely circumstantial.
"Surely the slower the race, the more it plays into the hands of the horse with a better turn of foot"
This is true, but more importantly, it plays into the hands of the horse who has the best position to strike and exploit the slow pace, when ground is harder to make up because horses are not as tired as they would be, had they been running 1m4 at a championship gallop. The King George was a false race, what dont you understand about that? Workforce was injured and hung across the track, St Nicholas Abbey had no chance from been given a poor tactical ride off a 3m hurdle gallop and we all know what happened to Rewilding. I do not rate Workforce as a serious Arc contender this year, I have said that on numerous occasions before he even ran this year. I do not believe he is as good as his Derby and Arc winning profile suggests he should be. In my opinion, and it is only my opinion, Nathanial lacks the neccessary gears, to win an Arc. Thats my opinion from looking at the horse, I might be wrong but I will stand by my opinion until proven otherwise and that is all you can do in this game.
"Manduro did not beat DylanThomas on the bridle, *he was all out to win by just over a lengh"
All out? You call being nudged out hands and heels, all out?
"Fallon rode Dylan Thomas on 6 occasions and he won on him 6 times. Murtagh rode him on 7 occasions and won on *him twice."
Again, this simplistic approach does not take into account all possible factors. Murtagh won a King George on him, beating Youmzain by 4 lengths. Applying your childlike approach to racing, this would suggest that because Fallon only beat Youmzain a head, Murtagh made the horse 3 3/4 lengths better, which of course, is complete and utter nonsense. On two runs either side of that impressive King George victory, Dylan Thomas was beaten very comfortably, in Group 1 terms, by both Manduro and the 3yo Authorized. Both of these horses stayed 1m4 very well and there is no reason to suggest that had both races been two furlongs further, that those results would have changed. Dylan Thomas did win two Irish Champion stakes afterall, and was more than capable of producing high class performances over 1m2 even if slightly better over 1m4. The ease with which he was beaten by both Manduro and Authorized, both proven 1m4 stayers, suggests that on those day, the extra two furlongs would not have made a blind bit difference to the outcome.
There is absolutely no evidence whatsoever to suggest that Dylan Thomas ran better for Kieran Fallon, than he ran for Johnny Murtagh, the King George, which was one of his best performances, blows this absurd speculation out of the water. The fact that Fallon was unbeaten on him is testement to Fallon, but completely circumstantial.
I remain convinced Pour Moi would have won The Arc, given a clear passage and the absence of antics from Monsieur Barzalona. It only remains to convince my bank manager, though I doubt he'll have much sympathy. It's alright for the banks to gamble and lose with the country's money, but they get all arsey when you gamble with theirs and ask for an overdraught extension.
As for The Arc - supplement Frankel, Henry.
As for The Arc - supplement Frankel, Henry.
Zenyatta.....So the Irish Derby winner, a horse who has won 2 G1s from 4 attempts, is in your words "not a top class animal" You just couldn't make up some of the comments on here"
I love your ridiculous form analysis, how about I have a go at it? Nathaniel beat Workforce, whilst Treasure Beach beat Nathaniel. That means Treasure Beach would have won last years renewal of the Arc. Does that sound stupid? No worse than your analysis of Sevilles form, any donut should be able to work out that the same Seville who finished runner up in the Irish Derby and Grand Prix de Paris, did not show up at York, he was beaten 2 and a half lengths by Al Kazeem, a horse who had won a handicap LTO, by a lengh of a mark of 95. Get real!
Shergar i wouldn't dare try and claim your Crown as the 'King of the Ludicrous Comments'!
Treasure Beach is a good horse but nothing more, at least in my opinion. He is rated 120 which pretty much sums him up perfectly. He's decent but not a top quality performer.
And you cannot possibly argue that the Derby form is strong. Nathaniel improved in leaps and bounds from Chester to his two Ascot victories. I agree with you that he at the very least a live Arc contender but i cannot accept that the Derby form is anything better than 'untested'.
How much weight did Nathaniel get off Workforce in the KG? WF clearly something was amiss - hanging any further then he'd have jumped the grandstand!
Looks to be a top race for me - lots of claims in it for me!!
Looks to be a top race for me - lots of claims in it for me!!
I was quite happy for Pour Moi to be the ante-post favourite for the Arc because this year’s Derby was a very moderate race just going on the ratings and the fact that people are having to draw form lines with other races to try and make it any better tells its own story. Having backed Sarafina ante-post for the race I am obviously biased in thinking that this year’s Derby will not throw up the Arc winner.
The best of the three-year-olds on paper is Nathaniel but the King George form is yet to be proven. I would not be interested in Baraan in the Arc because he threw the Prix Du Jockey Club away at the start and there is no reason to believe that he will not do the same at Longchamp.
Frankel will not be heading to Paris as Khalid Abdullah has nine others entered, including Workforce, Sea Moon, Redwood and Midday.
The best of the three-year-olds on paper is Nathaniel but the King George form is yet to be proven. I would not be interested in Baraan in the Arc because he threw the Prix Du Jockey Club away at the start and there is no reason to believe that he will not do the same at Longchamp.
Frankel will not be heading to Paris as Khalid Abdullah has nine others entered, including Workforce, Sea Moon, Redwood and Midday.