Leeds Utd v Brentford Match Thread / #LUFC Breakfast Debate Thur 22nd Feb

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SCORELINE : Leeds Utd v Brentford

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Looking at our defence in the highlights:

My view of first goal. Up to then Cooper had been ok. Long ball was aimed at an area that should have been Coopers and he rightly went for it.

De Bock also went for it, wrongly. I don’t think he put Cooper off, Cooper just misjudged it did an atrocious header right into path of player towards the wing. Because de Bock was out of position he could not get across in time. Not sure I’d blame Wiedwald it wasn’t his ball initially and ok he failed to save the shot but it was from a good scoring position

In the play shown up to that point, the only defensive problems I saw were Berardi got caught napping by their left winger on one occasion; then deBock was hopelessly out of position when they whipped that corner right across the face of the goal and it only needed a touch from Huddleston (Felix just let it go too and should have got it I think). But de Bock was marking fresh air when he should have been tight on the spare man and/or by the goalpost.

Berardi then fcked up again, got caught in possession and seemed short of pace recovering and they were again a whisker from scoring. On that one Nugent was marked by de Bock, a bit harsher to blame him for Nugent getting the header to be fair. But some fullbacks might have stopped it.

Next they hit the crossbar. Thing I noticed then is Vieira came across to left (might have been a correct decision as Forshaw was not going to get there) but pulled out of tackle (Derby player was favourite). Forshaw did not move to cover gap left by Vieira on the right (and he could, he was just walking and ball watching). As a result the Derby player ran forwards 5 yards and had a really clean shot. The two CM players need to operate as a unit (Bremner and Giles, anyone?) and Vieira did that, covering Forshaw, but Forshaw failed to do the same in return).

Continued......
 
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Other defensive bits I noticed:

De Bock had an easy interception and let it slip under his feet. Felix saved well (but why can he never have the ball stick to his hands?)

In fairness, next thing I noted was an excellent de Bock tackle, Sais then almost got Soggy through

I also note there was a lot less to report on defensively once Sais (and Phillips) came on. I put that down to Derby being under pressure themselves.

Next incident - Cooper got under a looping ball that was heading for the penalty spot, behind the defensive line. Surely Felix should have called and come for it? It was a bad header but Cooper was running back to get to it. Both Pontus and Cooper yelled at Felix when it was cleared for a corner.

From that fck up they got the goal. Another looping ball near penalty spot, area was crowded so probably Felix right not to come, they just did better than us at getting to it, not sure I know who to blame. But the prior corner should not have happened, I blame Felix a lot more than Cooper.

I am of course only looking at 18 minutes of highlights, but based on these de Bock and Felix look to be the defensive weak links, Berardi and Cooper had their moments too but we were away against a top side so maybe you can’t expect to be on top of them completely. The two DM need to work as a unit or gaps can appear.
 
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Jammy 07 said:
Ok fair enough and most people would probably agree with your opinion.

However don't you think last night was different ?

From what I saw (on Sky) we were massively let down by 3 players in particular. I agree with PH that no one should be blamed for making a mistake as long as they are trying to play football and effect the game. Last night there were rabbits in headlights who were clearly so far away from being what we need that a little more insight and discussion is required as to why that is.

Look we've signed some real turkeys in the past and will obviously continue to do so in the future but let's at least try to debate why that is. Just saying Orta is to blame is ridiculous in my opinion. Someone has to scout and sign the players and there will always be successes and failures whoever undertakes the task.

Why is Felix rooted to his line ? Who is coaching him and do they share some of the blame for his poor positional sense ?

Many things to debate and discuss.
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Keeper is the massive problem for Me you can say no keeper could have saved that one etc etc but good keepers seem to always be in the right place and bad keepers always in the wrong place,ours just doesn't seem to stop many shots at all,he's good at throwing the ball out but nothing else IMO.
 
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lifecheshirewhite said:
Keeper is the massive problem for Me you can say no keeper could have saved that one etc etc but good keepers seem to always be in the right place and bad keepers always in the wrong place,ours just doesn't seem to stop many shots at all,he's good at throwing the ball out but nothing else IMO.
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He also does not communicate. The corner Cooper gave away that led to the goal, the ball should have been his but he let Cooper try to head it. Forshaw had to put another ball away for a corner because he did not call

All the defenders were showing their annoyance for his lack of talk
 
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The issue with Felix has made me recall a number of discussions I had with friends in the 70s about who was better between Clemente and Shilton. Shilton was a good shot stopper but liked to stay on his line ,where as Clemente liked to command his area and due to his positioning made most of his saves look easy.

Obviously the defensive unit in front of a keeper helps. If they can keep a solid line and restrict shots at goal from outside the area together with crosses from deadballs, then this makes it easier for a keeper to position himself right and this in my opinion is where we are seeing the issue with our defensive frailities. For the majority of a game defenders are expected to defend between the 18 yard box and the halfway line with the keeper again in the majority of situations dealing with balls into the penalty area. However with most attacks at goals coming from either crosses or balls over the top, then the actual defenders have to work harder and deal with those situations more, if you have a goal line keeper, such as Shilton was and that is fine if you have the defenders who are skilful( both physically and mentally) to deal with that.

We have solid average defenders who most of the time will do a decent enough job. However due to Felix's style of keeping this puts more pressure on the defenders and inevitably leads to them making more individual errors. This then has a knock on affect, as our defensive midfield players play deeper than normal to keep the space between them and the defence to a minimum, thus they either need to work harder than similar skilled players in other teams that play those positions or reduce their own attacking potential.

So do we need new defenders who are more able to adapt to to our keeper situation or a keeper who can command his area more, to take the pressure of the back four, in my mind the keeper is the easier and probably cheaper to replace
 
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Aski said:
The issue with Felix has made me recall a number of discussions I had with friends in the 70s about who was better between Clemente and Shilton. Shilton was a good shot stopper but liked to stay on his line ,where as Clemente liked to command his area and due to his positioning made most of his saves look easy.

Obviously the defensive unit in front of a keeper helps. If they can keep a solid line and restrict shots at goal from outside the area together with crosses from deadballs, then this makes it easier for a keeper to position himself right and this in my opinion is where we are seeing the issue with our defensive frailities. For the majority of a game defenders are expected to defend between the 18 yard box and the halfway line with the keeper again in the majority of situations dealing with balls into the penalty area. However with most attacks at goals coming from either crosses or balls over the top, then the actual defenders have to work harder and deal with those situations more, if you have a goal line keeper, such as Shilton was and that is fine if you have the defenders who we skilful( both physically and mentally) to deal with that. We have solid average defenders who most of the time will do a decent enough job. However due to Felix's style of keeping this puts more pressure on the defenders and inevitably leads to them making more individual errors. This then has a knock on affect, as our defensive midfield players play deeper than normal to keep the space between them and the defence to a minimum, thus they either need to work harder than similar skilled players in other teams that play those positions or reduce their own attacking potential.

So do we need new defenders who are more able to adapt to to our keeper situation or a keeper who can command his area more, to take the pressure of the back four, in my mind the keeper is the easier and probably cheaper to replace
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It’s the old story, it’s a team game so every player affects both defence and attack

Personallyhaving has a good look at the last couple of games on video I think Felix is problem no 1, de Bock based on the Derby game is also a weak link. If they can’t be coached to improve they will always let us down
 
De Bock had a poor game on Wednesday, no doubt about it, but I would say for most of his other games he's overall been no better or worse than anyone else. He freely admits that he's a defender, not an attacking wing back, which is why he left Bruge as they played 3 at the back. He's also come into a team low on confidence and is probably finding it a bit harder than he expected, but I expect him to be solid enough at this level to do a decent job for us, so I'm not so down on his performance the other night
 
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Aski said:
De Bock had a poor game on Wednesday, no doubt about it, but I would say for most of his other games he's overall been no better or worse than anyone else. He freely admits that he's a defender, not an attacking wing back, which is why he left Bruge as they played 3 at the back. He's also come into a team low on confidence and is probably finding it a bit harder than he expected, but I expect him to be solid enough at this level to do a decent job for us, so I'm not so down on his performance the other night
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The reason I was so critical of De Bock was not just because of the errors and having a bad game. It was more the look in his eye of being totally shellshocked and bewildered. He is not the first and will certainly not be the last to find the shirt too heavy. Let's hope PH gets an arm round him and gives him the confidence and freedom to be able to perform to his best.

Your comments about Felix being too deep and therefore making the pitch larger are absolutely spot on. I noticed at the start of the season he actually swept up really well behind the the defence but unfortunately as his confidence has drained away he has become glued to his line. It will take a monumental phycological effort from him to turn things around as I believe he does have the ability. Being able to overcome his errors in judgement when the crowd is anxious and the opposition know his weakness will be the toughest challenge he has faced in his career to date.
 
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2020VisionofLeeds said:
I’m warming to Lasogga. None of his goals from penalties (I think) while Wood got a lot of penalties

Loved it when he ‘accidentally’ fouled Keogh, then innocently apologised. Good to see him show the passion.
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A month since I said I couldn't see a place in the squad for Lasogga How wrong I was. thank goodness.
 
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