Off Topic The Politics Thread

[Stroller]

Well you would if you answered the question.
I'll try again.............if you get your wish and there's a referendum on the final deal and it doesn't go the way you'd like, will you want another one?

If I may be permitted to answer that Col, as far as I am concerned a referendum on the final deal should be conclusive.

 

[seagullhoop]

And what if they vote against your wishes? Would you want another one? Maybe re-word it or something?

It's pretty clear... if there was a vote on facts not fantasy it would be something I'd be in favour of.

As to whether I would be happy with the result... consider this... do you personally change your politics based on the result of an election?

The problem is your 'question' is wrong.

Why would anyone's opinions about the pros and cons of leaving the EU be swayed based on the vote?

I think you're trying to intimate that if a second vote goes against my opinions I should change them, or just suck it up - that's patently ridiculous

Opinions change when new information relating to the situation is made available - so as I said, I'll vote on the facts which in this instance would be the deal offered.

It's really not that difficult.

 

[rangercol]

It's pretty clear... if there was a vote on facts not fantasy it would be something I'd be in favour of.

As to whether I would be happy with the result... consider this... do you personally change your politics based on the result of an election?

The problem is your 'question' is wrong.

Why would anyone's opinions about the pros and cons of leaving the EU be swayed based on the vote?

I think you're trying to intimate that if a second vote goes against my opinions I should change them, or just suck it up - that's patently ridiculous

Opinions change when new information relating to the situation is made available - so as I said, I'll vote on the facts which in this instance would be the deal offered.

It's really not that difficult.

Blimey. This is like pulling teeth! I'm not implying anything. I didn't ask whether you would be happy with the result or not. I didn't say anyone's view should be swayed by a vote.
I'm simply asking you that, if you get your wish and we have a vote on the final deal (I think that's what you're saying you want) and that vote goes against your vote, will you accept that or continue requesting further votes?

 

[seagullhoop]

Blimey. This is like pulling teeth! I'm not implying anything. I didn't ask whether you would be happy with the result or not. I didn't say anyone's view should be swayed by a vote.
I'm simply asking you that, if you get your wish and we have a vote on the final deal (I think that's what you're saying you want) and that vote goes against your vote, will you accept that or continue requesting further votes?

I really don't know what you want me to say - or what you're angling for.

Why would anyone change a political position based on a vote - would you stop campaigning for your party of choice because you lose an election?

What would be gained by anyone 'accepting' a position they feel to be wrong.

You really do need to rethink what you are looking for out of this conversation.

 

[rangercol]

I really don't know what you want me to say - or what you're angling for.

Why would anyone change a political position based on a vote - would you stop campaigning for your party of choice because you lose an election?

What would be gained by anyone 'accepting' a position they feel to be wrong.

You really do need to rethink what you are looking for out of this conversation.

OK. I give up. You're clearly being purposely difficult. Stroller had no problem answering the question.
I'm not saying you should agree with the result of another vote.
I'm not saying that you should change your views if a vote disagrees with them.
I'm not angling for anything.

I'm simply asking you where it all ends. If another referendum goes against you, will you want another one or will you, as Stroller says he would, accept the result and move on? It's a simple question.

 

[seagullhoop]

OK. I give up. You're clearly being purposely difficult. Stroller had no problem answering the question.
I'm not saying you should agree with the result of another vote.
I'm not saying that you should change your views if a vote disagrees with them.
I'm not angling for anything.

I'm simply asking you where it all ends. If another referendum goes against you, will you want another one or will you, as Stroller says he would, accept the result and move on? It's a simple question.

See above...

 

[rangercol]

See above...

What are you afraid of? Why can't you give a straight answer.
Must be on the wind up.

You simply refuse to answer a straight forward, easy question. Argument lost.

 

[QPR Oslo]

Still don't know if you're in favour of referendums or not?

I'm not in favour of referendums, or at least not on complex, far reaching questions like the one on the EU, where nobody knew what they were going to get in any detail whatsoever. As someone said, we elect people to parliament and political parties to make these kind of decisions. Only referendums that I can go with are relatively simple local ones where people can vote on stuff like do you want to hold the Olympic games in your City, or not. Having had one referendum on Brexit, I can't really argue against having another referendum when detail of the proposed agreement is known, but I'd prefer for the Government just to thank the voters for their advice, but stay in the EU without any further ado, and work with other countries in Europe to make Europe a better place. This would then leave it up to any political party still favoring Brexit to try if they will to get it through parliament.

 

[ELLERS]

Only referendums that I can go with are relatively simple local ones where people can vote on stuff like do you want to hold the Olympic games in your City, or not.

But sadly Oslo If it was a 'Yes' to hold the Olympic games in your City the people that lost would probably say 'we need another referendum because people were not told before about a new bus lane going in for the spectators'...you get my point.
Although what you said about Europe being a better place is commendable. I really hope it is with us being good neighbours (like we already are) but without being in the EU. Like Norway, I still class them as in Europe and forget sometimes that they are not in the EU.

 

[Deleted.......]

No, Brexit means leaving the EU. That's what I voted for. That's the question we were asked.

So you are in favour of referendums?
If you got your wish and that vote went against your wishes, what then?

I know you never asked me but I would be more in favour if the answer was the one I wanted! I don't mind people asked their view on such big issues but as we have seen with the last two in the UK they can be incredibly divisive if the result is close. But that's not in itself a reason not to have them as you could say the same about general elections. Now there is a thought

 

[QPR Oslo]

But sadly Oslo If it was a 'Yes' to hold the Olympic games in your City the people that lost would probably say 'we need another referendum because people were not told before about a new bus lane going in for the spectators'...you get my point.
Although what you said about Europe being a better place is commendable. I really hope it is with us being good neighbours (like we already are) but without being in the EU. Like Norway, I still class them as in Europe and forget sometimes that they are not in the EU.

In practise with Olympic games there isn't time for a 2nd vote!

 

[ELLERS]

In practise with Olympic games there isn't time for a 2nd vote!

I like the look of Norway (polar bears as well). I keep saying to Mrs Ellers that we should do a trip to Norway and Finland.

 

[Stroller]

Norway Renames Itself ‘****hole’ In Solidarity With Countries Trump Insulted

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(Oslo, ****hole) After being singled out by President Trump as a preferable source of immigration compared to ‘****hole’ nations like Haiti and many countries in Africa, Norway has taken the drastic step of renaming itself to show it does not approve of such behavior.
Though acknowledging Norway was probably only singled out due to her being the last leader of a majority white country that Trump met with, Norwegian Prime Minister Erna Solberg said it is important to make a statement that will be heard.

 

[QPR Oslo]

Norway Renames Itself ‘****hole’ In Solidarity With Countries Trump Insulted

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(Oslo, ****hole) After being singled out by President Trump as a preferable source of immigration compared to ‘****hole’ nations like Haiti and many countries in Africa, Norway has taken the drastic step of renaming itself to show it does not approve of such behavior.
Though acknowledging Norway was probably only singled out due to her being the last leader of a majority white country that Trump met with, Norwegian Prime Minister Erna Solberg said it is important to make a statement that will be heard.

Haaaaa! Fake newssssssss candidate No 1

 

[rangercol]

I'm not in favour of referendums, or at least not on complex, far reaching questions like the one on the EU, where nobody knew what they were going to get in any detail whatsoever. As someone said, we elect people to parliament and political parties to make these kind of decisions. Only referendums that I can go with are relatively simple local ones where people can vote on stuff like do you want to hold the Olympic games in your City, or not. Having had one referendum on Brexit, I can't really argue against having another referendum when detail of the proposed agreement is known, but I'd prefer for the Government just to thank the voters for their advice, but stay in the EU without any further ado, and work with other countries in Europe to make Europe a better place. This would then leave it up to any political party still favoring Brexit to try if they will to get it through parliament.

I'm torn on referendums. I take the point on issues being too huge to maybe trust the people, but as I've said, our politicians are so **** I just don't want to leave it all to them.

 

[kiwiqpr]

Oh come on. Said the individual that posted links to articles supporting his perspective? Even for you that's a stunning lack of self awareness.



It is complicated - making it a simple in/out question without providing understanding of the outcomes is what led less educated people to believe that leaving the EU would stem immigration and the NHS would be better funded.

Nevertheless.. I just can't accept massive generalisation backed up by little in the way of evidence - I have repeatedly made the point that this government is taking a cavalier and deeply muddled approach to what is the most important political and social process in our lifetime. Mainly you have offered the 'we won so get used to it', 'the vote is done so that's that' and 'remoaner' - it's not exactly scintillating repartee, and it's just not addressing questions that need answers.

Agreed it is a little tedious, we really aren't getting anywhere - we disagree... most fundamentally about what constitutes 'democracy'.

Time will tell how things will pan out, my hope is we won't end up regretting decisions taken based on dogma and misinformation - what I'm pretty sure of is that the people charged with making this work wont be the ones to suffer if it all goes wrong... they will walk away with knighthoods and well paid directorships.

Sadly, for the rest of us, we'll have to live with the consequences.

Would you let the less educated vote in another referendum
What would be your education level cut off point

 

[seagullhoop]

Would you let the less educated vote in another referendum
What would be your education level cut off point

I think you're inferring something from my comments there.

My comment about the less educated wasn't referring to any individuals level of education - rather that people were inadvertently 'misinformed' or deliberately lied to as to what 'benefits' Brexit would bring i.e. those that thought it would limit immigration from non-EU countries or that the NHS would be better funded.

Clearly everyone has the right to vote, whatever their level of education.

My point is that the vote didn't actually outline what the outcomes would be other than in/out with varying degrees of sloganeering about 'taking back control' and 'sovereignty' which have been interpreted as many different things. The first vote was clouded by misinformation and outright lies. If there is to be second it should be with the full understanding of what outcomes the two options will bring. It is only in this way that the electorate will be able to make an educated decision.

 

[seagullhoop]

What are you afraid of? Why can't you give a straight answer.
Must be on the wind up.

You simply refuse to answer a straight forward, easy question. Argument lost.

If you like. I tried to give you a more nuanced answer but like the original question on the ballot paper we'll have to agree to disagree on whether these things can be simplified to your desired level of debate.

 

[ELLERS]

I think you're inferring something from my comments there.

My comment about the less educated wasn't referring to any individuals level of education - rather that people were inadvertently 'misinformed' or deliberately lied to as to what 'benefits' Brexit would bring i.e. those that thought it would limit immigration from non-EU countries or that the NHS would be better funded.

Clearly everyone has the right to vote, whatever their level of education.

My point is that the vote didn't actually outline what the outcomes would be other than in/out with varying degrees of sloganeering about 'taking back control' and 'sovereignty' which have been interpreted as many different things. The first vote was clouded by misinformation and outright lies. If there is to be second it should be with the full understanding of what outcomes the two options will bring. It is only in this way that the electorate will be able to make an educated decision.

The end of democracy.

 

[Stroller]

The end of democracy.

This will cheer you up Ellers.

https://www.theguardian.com/politic...e-now-beginning?CMP=Share_AndroidApp_Facebook