Off Topic OLOF's political thread

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Doc said:
http://www.spiked-online.com/newsit...brexit-they-kill-democracy/20643#.WjE6rFVl-pp
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This is a standard pro Brexiteer article with the usual arguments about democracy

I invite you to consider that these debates about democracy are a bit like those tedious debates about whether Leeds are a ‘big club’. I stopped participating in these when I realised everyone chose a different definition of ‘big club’ and then were able to convince themselves their position on this emotive question was the correct one.

When you consider countries as diverse as the UK and North Korea consider themselves to be democracies, you can maybe see there may be a similar problem of definition here

FWIW I think having asked them, (though it was dumb to reduce such a complex set of options to a yes/no), politicians have to do what the people want.

However in our democracy the people change their minds, usually that is reflected in a general election with a different outcome. In this case there is no clear process for reflecting a change of mind,
But in my version of democracy the people are entitled to have a change of mind acted upon. (Right now there is no absolute proof they have changed their minds, though a few indications a change of mind could occur.)

The other part of the standard ignoring democracy argument is to say the govt may be doing Brexit. But it’s not the one the people voted for ...... well, forgive me but people voted Leave that’s all ..... Leave in a particular way was not on the ballot paper

The government need to reflect the democratic vote of the people by trying to get the best Brexit they can achieve. I think they are doing this, though I don’t want any form of Brexit, personally.
If it becomes very apparent (it isn’t yet, not clear cut enough) that people don’t want this Brexit, now they can see it, they should have the option given them to reconsider. That’s not anti democratic, rather the reverse
 
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Doc said:
Anybody who voted remain and still thinks remain is best need to emigrate as they cant be British. Why would anyone want to bow down to a new EU President, with a single currency, with a centralised tax system, with an army of its own, an anthem, a flag, a judicial system. This is the plan, this has been spoken as being the plan by all the top EU officials in the last few days. You aint British if you vote against your own nation.....
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As Gary McAllister said about his son "he's no' English, he's a Yorkshireman".

I'm from Leeds first, Yorkshire 2nd before even get into England, Great Britain, United Kingdom or European. But if you think that the German's are any less German or the French any less French or indeed English or Scottish any less English or Scottish since being in the EU then you need to travel more and have a little bit more faith in your own fragile identity.

And as for you ain't British if you vote against your nation; try telling that to Winston Churchill who called for a United States of Europe in 1947.

Frankly if you voted leave and you're prepared to shaft the economy and the younger generation for some fantasy return to a Britain standing alone (not acknowledging that it was being propped up by a commonwealth that no longer exists) then you've got a strange definition of patriotism.
 
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lifecheshirewhite said:
Standing up for your country is nothing to be ashamed of,you would be a German if many didn't do just that.
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Very true in the 2nd World War but if you 'stood up' for your country in the first World War then it was likely to be to go over the top and get yourself meaninglessly killed.

All this talk of wars in Europe is probably a good time to ask how many EU nations have gone to war with another EU nation since being in the EU? And what were the figures before the EU?

(And what was the cost in terms of lives before even getting into the financial cost of these wars compared to the cost of EU membership?)
 
dbc said:
Very true in the 2nd World War but if you 'stood up' for your country in the first World War then it was likely to be to go over the top and get yourself meaninglessly killed.

All this talk of wars in Europe is probably a good time to ask how many EU nations have gone to war with EU nations since being in the EU? And what were the figures before the EU?
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In the last 100 years how many wars have Monaco and Switzerland had compaired to EU countries.Who did the Spanish support in the Falklands war ? Who gave Argentina missiles to sink our boats and kill our people ?.There's also a good argument for Nuclear weapons being the main reason for no wars.
 
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dbc said:
As Gary McAllister said about his son "he's no' English, he's a Yorkshireman".

I'm from Leeds first, Yorkshire 2nd before even get into England, Great Britain, United Kingdom or European. But if you think that the German's are any less German or the French any less French or indeed English or Scottish any less English or Scottish since being in the EU then you need to travel more and have a little bit more faith in your own fragile identity.

And as for you ain't British if you vote against your nation; try telling that to Winston Churchill who called for a United States of Europe in 1947.

Frankly if you voted leave and you're prepared to shaft the economy and the younger generation for some fantasy return to a Britain standing alone (not acknowledging that it was being propped up by a commonwealth that no longer exists) then you've got a strange definition of patriotism.
Click to expand...
The Eu has spent the last 50 years screwing us over,time to stand with our friends not enemies who hate us.
 
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dbc said:
As Gary McAllister said about his son "he's no' English, he's a Yorkshireman".

I'm from Leeds first, Yorkshire 2nd before even get into England, Great Britain, United Kingdom or European. But if you think that the German's are any less German or the French any less French or indeed English or Scottish any less English or Scottish since being in the EU then you need to travel more and have a little bit more faith in your own fragile identity.

And as for you ain't British if you vote against your nation; try telling that to Winston Churchill who called for a United States of Europe in 1947.

Frankly if you voted leave and you're prepared to shaft the economy and the younger generation for some fantasy return to a Britain standing alone (not acknowledging that it was being propped up by a commonwealth that no longer exists) then you've got a strange definition of patriotism.
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Tripe as per.

British governments may make the right or wrong choices, but those choices can be corrected through general elections and parliamentary votes once we leave. Since 1973 we have had no choice in the matter as we have been dictated to by a corrupt EU.
If you voted remain, you are nothing more than an anti-British fascist - see Glory and 20/20 as living proof!!
 
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