Match Day Thread Saints At Liversaints, November 18th, 3pm - Bleak and Awful Matchday Thread

[Libby]

I think that the problem can be fixed without getting rid of Pellegrino. There is something clearly awry with the coaching as we are seeing the same kind of problems as last season and there still does not seem to be a solution to them. If anything, I wonder how much Eric Black is a problem.

It seemed that we took too long to replace Claude Puel even though it was pretty obvious towards the end of his tenure that his position was looking precarious with the lack of goals and poor level of entertainment. I wonder if Pellegrino had been brought in earlier, he might have had the opportunity to look at his front line sooner. You make some good points and the last paragraph sums up for me the logic as to why I think it would be a folly to get rid of Pellegrino so quickly. You are right that the appointments of Puel and Pellegrino might be errors on the part of Les Reed . I am sure that we already have future targets but I think that Pellegrino needs to be given the chance to sort out the mess he inherited.

Regarding his assessment of the squad, wasn't there a comment from a former player / current player a month or so back to the effect that Pellegrino was still unaware what his best line up was?

https://www.not606.com/threads/supe...sat-27-august-3pm.334828/page-22#post-9634595

 

[TheSecondStain]

It can, as in a one off result, or a freak season (Leicester) but there's simply too much money in the game for us to become anything more than an upper mid table club with the odd challenge for Europe / cup run.

I just don't think it's fair to have a dig for not 'maintaining upward momentum' when we reached a bit of a glass ceiling and it would have been borderline impossible to do so.

Well I don't agree. Liverpool were never 'always good'. Man U were just bloody average once upon a time. Chelsea were once a cup team at best. The list can go on and on. There is no reason why a team can't be managed to become better and better. But the truth is that we have lost our upward momentum. It has finally gone through not doing the right things at the right time.

 

[fatletiss]

This is exactly my opinion. It is a god post. I did not listen to the match on the radio today although I understand that it was not a great performance even if we are alleged to have played well during the first 20 minutes. I was expecting a defeat and am therefore not surprised.

I am not against MP2 and think, as a generalisation., there is an attempt to play better football than last season although it doesn't seem to work. The squad does need a major overhaul and I think that with some substantial changes, the performances will pick up so that the manager can be better judged. By and large, the additions to the squad this season have been much better than those we added last season and if there is one criticism, it is the continued failure of the midfield to connect with the front line. The January transfer windows will be interesting as we need players who are better able to connect with each other. Too many players need to be moved on and I think some of the dead wood like Tadic, Redmond, Austin, Ward-prowse need to be off-loaded. The impression I get is that Pellegrino is not necessarily working with his "own" players. The addition of Hoedt and Lamina have been to the betterment of the squad. I will be interested to see how Pellegrino manages to build a squad that reflects his philosophy and abandons the one man up front line up.

I agree that we need to improve and that this season's results have, so far, not been good enough. However, I just feel that he is still trying to address the issues that he inherited from last season before he is able to stamp his own identity on the squad. The problem continues to be lack of goals but decent goal scorers are very difficult to come by and, to run with the point raised by "I ruined the party," I think Pellegrino will get better results once he finds a replacement for Pelle. I am not as hostile to the Argentinian as many people posting in here as I feel that he was dealt a poor hand by Les Reed. We seem to be linked with the right kind of players in the press and I don't feel as negative about our performances as I did last season. We will probably finish bottom half and maybe once Pellegrino had had the chance to repair the damage done by Claude Puel, we can judge him better. If anything, it is surprising that Eric Black is not getting enough criticism in this thread.

Hilarious Ian, simply hilarious. To date, Puel at this stage had us playing to a plan and we we're a much better side, who looked solid and although less exciting than the previous couple of seasons, we created many chances.

You even tell us that we "sounded" like we had a good 20 minutes in a game you didn't see or listen too. Puel had many many 29 minutes when we looked good but never once would you admit that (cup final
Apart) You have zero credibility in my eyes. You are so biased against Claude Puel it borders on insanity.

What a joke.

 

[TheSecondStain]

It can , for good and bad .

Yes, but some people just look at the bad. I always look at what is possible. Not what is not possible.

 

[Ian Thumwood]

No one has said that. They are suggesting they were dicks for wanting him out.

This is where I totally disagree.

I think the problem was that the board could see that season ticket sales would be done if they persisted with Puel. This is why they ditched him as he was reluctant to entertain the idea of changing his spots and playing more entertaining football. The issue you seem to forget that football is about entertainment and, by and large, people were not being entertained by Claude Puel's football. This season, the results have been worse and we have under-achieved, but the style of football is nowhere as near as turgid. As I said, I think Pellegrino has got to put a lot right that went wrong last season and start to re-fresh the squad which has become stale and uninspired. I have commented previously that I think the team will be re-built in January and there will be some significant transfer activity, both in and out of the club. Once this business is done, maybe it is then the time to judge Pellegrino.

 

[Whiteley Saint]

Wrong thread

 

[Libby]

Hilarious Ian, simply hilarious. To date, Puel at this stage had us playing to a plan and we we're a much better side, who looked solid and although less exciting than the previous couple of seasons, we created many chances.

You even tell us that we "sounded" like we had a good 20 minutes in a game you didn't see or listen too. Puel had many many 29 minutes when we looked good but never once would you admit that (cup final
Apart) You have zero credibility in my eyes. You are so biased against Claude Puel it borders on insanity.

What a joke.

See my link I posted above... 27th August

 

[fatletiss]

https://www.not606.com/threads/supe...sat-27-august-3pm.334828/page-22#post-9634595

Scroll down after this. I think saintsfan4life sums it up perfectly.

 

[fatletiss]

This is where I totally disagree.

I think the problem was that the board could see that season ticket sales would be done if they persisted with Puel. This is why they ditched him as he was reluctant to entertain the idea of changing his spots and playing more entertaining football. The issue you seem to forget that football is about entertainment and, by and large, people were not being entertained by Claude Puel's football. This season, the results have been worse and we have under-achieved, but the style of football is nowhere as near as turgid. As I said, I think Pellegrino has got to put a lot right that went wrong last season and start to re-fresh the squad which has become stale and uninspired. I have commented previously that I think the team will be re-built in January and there will be some significant transfer activity, both in and out of the club. Once this business is done, maybe it is then the time to judge Pellegrino.

In my humble opinion, this is utter bollocks. hypocritical too. 27th August you had decided not to give Puel time. Totally hypocracy.

Let's be honest you hardly go to the games anyway.

Football is a professional support that, like it or not, has become about results. I love the tactical part of football and in my view, Puel is head and shoulders above MP2 tacticallly.

 

[Ian Thumwood]

Hilarious Ian, simply hilarious. To date, Puel at this stage had us playing to a plan and we we're a much better side, who looked solid and although less exciting than the previous couple of seasons, we created many chances.

You even tell us that we "sounded" like we had a good 20 minutes in a game you didn't see or listen too. Puel had many many 29 minutes when we looked good but never once would you admit that (cup final
Apart) You have zero credibility in my eyes. You are so biased against Claude Puel it borders on insanity.

What a joke.

Total rubbish.

We were playing brilliant under Poch and Koeman. The football was a delight to watch, We pressed and attacked at pace. Enter, Claude Puel and the pressing game was dispensed with and the speed of the counter-attacks slowed down to the extent that we were predictable. Few of the imports from Claude's days such as Redmond, Pied, PEH and Boufal have had the impact on the team as Lemina who has stiffened up the midfield. Only Gabbi initially made an impression. If we are still poor after the window, then it will be necessary to judge Pellegrino differently but, at the moment, I feel it will be wrong to let him go. I just feel that the new manager has had a tough job to begin with whereas Claude Puel inherited a decent side who were playing good football and with the addition of replacements for Pelle and Mane, should have continued where Koeman left off. The side definitely lost it's mojo when he took over.

It will be interesting to see how well Claude Puel does at Leicester. My guess is that they will do ok but the fans will grow frustrated with the style of football if it does not change from what he was serving up at St Mary's. Interesting to listen to the fan dissatisfaction at West Brom on tonight's 606 as another set of supporters no longer seem content with poor-value entertainment.

 

[Libby]

Total rubbish.

We were playing brilliant under Poch and Koeman. The football was a delight to watch, We pressed and attacked at pace. Enter, Claude Puel and the pressing game was dispensed with and the speed of the counter-attacks slowed down to the extent that we were predictable. Few of the imports from Claude's days such as Redmond, Pied, PEH and Boufal have had the impact on the team as Lemina who has stiffened up the midfield. Only Gabbi initially made an impression. If we are still poor after the window, then it will be necessary to judge Pellegrino differently but, at the moment, I feel it will be wrong to let him go. I just feel that the new manager has had a tough job to begin with whereas Claude Puel inherited a decent side who were playing good football and with the addition of replacements for Pelle and Mane, should have continued where Koeman left off. The side definitely lost it's mojo when he took over.

It will be interesting to see how well Claude Puel does at Leicester. My guess is that they will do ok but the fans will grow frustrated with the style of football if it does not change from what he was serving up at St Mary's. Interesting to listen to the fan dissatisfaction at West Brom on tonight's 606 as another set of supporters no longer seem content with poor-value entertainment.

https://www.not606.com/threads/supe...sat-27-august-3pm.334828/page-22#post-9634595

 

[Schad]

This is where I totally disagree.

I think the problem was that the board could see that season ticket sales would be done if they persisted with Puel. This is why they ditched him as he was reluctant to entertain the idea of changing his spots and playing more entertaining football. The issue you seem to forget that football is about entertainment and, by and large, people were not being entertained by Claude Puel's football. This season, the results have been worse and we have under-achieved, but the style of football is nowhere as near as turgid. As I said, I think Pellegrino has got to put a lot right that went wrong last season and start to re-fresh the squad which has become stale and uninspired. I have commented previously that I think the team will be re-built in January and there will be some significant transfer activity, both in and out of the club. Once this business is done, maybe it is then the time to judge Pellegrino.

As dull as we were last year, we are severalfold more dull this season. This is clear to the naked eye, but it's also very clear in the stats: we are scoring 31% fewer goals per game, in part because we are getting 40% fewer shots on target. I was critical of our reliance on long shots by players with little acumen for scoring from distance under Puel; well, the percentage of shots from outside the box has increased.

Exactly no one save yourself seems to be more entertained this year than last. We were mediocre in 2016-17, and I thought that Puel was fairly mediocre himself. We're outright bad in 2017-18, and I'm afraid that I think that matches the performance of our manager, as well.

 

[Libby]

As dull as we were last year, we are severalfold more dull this season. This is clear to the naked eye, but it's also very clear in the stats: we are scoring 31% fewer goals per game, in part because we are getting 40% fewer shots on target. I was critical of our reliance on long shots by players with little acumen for scoring from distance under Puel; well, the percentage of shots from outside the box has increased.

Exactly no one save yourself seems to be more entertained this year than last. We were mediocre in 2016-17, and I thought that Puel was fairly mediocre himself. We're outright bad in 2017-18, and I'm afraid that I think that matches the performance of our manager, as well.

Exactly, at least under Puel we were creating chances.

 

[st_brendy]

The fans who wanted puel gone did not choose to hire Pellegrino. The board hired him. Puel and Pellegrino were not the only possible options.

That's far too logical a statement to make...

The board made a mistake last summer. They've now made another mistake this summer. In my view. I don't believe in any way that this particular mistake somehow justifies last summer's actions as being correct afterall.

Equally though, that is not to say that they haven't made the situation even worse...

 

[Schad]

Exactly, at least under Puel we were creating chances.

Yeah. I refer back to the commentator's assessment of us, as halftime approached:

"Today, they haven't even been able to generate any chances to waste."

 

[Libby]

Yeah. I refer back to the commentator's assessment of us, as halftime approached:

"Today, they haven't even been able to generate any chances to waste."

Precisely.

At Brighton we created absolutely zilch from open play against a newly promoted side after taking an early lead. Don't really remember creating much at Palace after the early goal either.

 

[fatletiss]

Total rubbish.

We were playing brilliant under Poch and Koeman. The football was a delight to watch, We pressed and attacked at pace. Enter, Claude Puel and the pressing game was dispensed with and the speed of the counter-attacks slowed down to the extent that we were predictable. Few of the imports from Claude's days such as Redmond, Pied, PEH and Boufal have had the impact on the team as Lemina who has stiffened up the midfield. Only Gabbi initially made an impression. If we are still poor after the window, then it will be necessary to judge Pellegrino differently but, at the moment, I feel it will be wrong to let him go. I just feel that the new manager has had a tough job to begin with whereas Claude Puel inherited a decent side who were playing good football and with the addition of replacements for Pelle and Mane, should have continued where Koeman left off. The side definitely lost it's mojo when he took over.

It will be interesting to see how well Claude Puel does at Leicester. My guess is that they will do ok but the fans will grow frustrated with the style of football if it does not change from what he was serving up at St Mary's. Interesting to listen to the fan dissatisfaction at West Brom on tonight's 606 as another set of supporters no longer seem content with poor-value entertainment.

Ian, can you answer me a question honestly please?

How many Saints games did you attend last season?

How many Saints games did you see live 90 minutes on television/Pc?

 

[Lovelocum]

As dull as we were last year, we are severalfold more dull this season. This is clear to the naked eye, but it's also very clear in the stats: we are scoring 31% fewer goals per game, in part because we are getting 40% fewer shots on target. I was critical of our reliance on long shots by players with little acumen for scoring from distance under Puel; well, the percentage of shots from outside the box has increased.

Exactly no one save yourself seems to be more entertained this year than last. We were mediocre in 2016-17, and I thought that Puel was fairly mediocre himself. We're outright bad in 2017-18, and I'm afraid that I think that matches the performance of our manager, as well.

Indeed. People claim we are more attacking, I’m not really seeing it.

Puels main downfall was Europa. If we had got out of the group stage he may well still be here. We didn’t and despite reasonable final position and cup final his failure in Europe and dull football was his undoing.

The football is approximately the same but our results are worse.

 

[fatletiss]

Total rubbish.

We were playing brilliant under Poch and Koeman. The football was a delight to watch, We pressed and attacked at pace. Enter, Claude Puel and the pressing game was dispensed with and the speed of the counter-attacks slowed down to the extent that we were predictable. Few of the imports from Claude's days such as Redmond, Pied, PEH and Boufal have had the impact on the team as Lemina who has stiffened up the midfield. Only Gabbi initially made an impression. If we are still poor after the window, then it will be necessary to judge Pellegrino differently but, at the moment, I feel it will be wrong to let him go. I just feel that the new manager has had a tough job to begin with whereas Claude Puel inherited a decent side who were playing good football and with the addition of replacements for Pelle and Mane, should have continued where Koeman left off. The side definitely lost it's mojo when he took over.

It will be interesting to see how well Claude Puel does at Leicester. My guess is that they will do ok but the fans will grow frustrated with the style of football if it does not change from what he was serving up at St Mary's. Interesting to listen to the fan dissatisfaction at West Brom on tonight's 606 as another set of supporters no longer seem content with poor-value entertainment.

PS Ian, we played some utter **** under Koeman and for the last three months under Poch even, the games were flat and dull. We know he reasons why (because he knew and the players knew that he was leaving) but that doesn't get away from the fact they were dull.

Memory can be what you want to see.

TLL has already shown us tonight that you gave up on Puel on 27th August - now that's total rubbish mate. You just talk complete biased nonsense. I'd have more respect for you if you said that you've changed your tact this year because you realised you didn't give Puel a chance and this has made you change to now give a manager a chance.

I don't believe you see many of our games live at all. I think you listen to the radio, listen to the phone ins and select which fans comments to believe based on what you want to believe or what your agenda is.

 

[Ian Thumwood]

That's far too logical a statement to make...

The board made a mistake last summer. They've now made another mistake this summer. In my view. I don't believe in any way that this particular mistake somehow justifies last summer's actions are being correct afterall.

Equally though, that is not to say that they haven't made the situation even worse...

This is a good point. However, put it like this - how many of the current squad are actually "Pellgrino" players? He has made three signings including a Polish defender who is an investment for the future. If you look at the number of signings made under Claude Puel's reign, it far exceeds what the current incumbent has acquired for the club.

I have a season ticket in the Chapel End so go to the home matches in the league and cup. I cannot comment on away games as I am unable to travel to them as I cannot afford the time. My point is simply to say that Pellegrino has had little time to change to squad and it is premature to judge him especially when he has had to sort out the mess he inherited.