Off Topic The Politics Thread

Nope.

 

never heard of it here either

 

This Catalonia thing is looking like a real mess.

 

Yep.

 

The silence from the EU. on this is deafening. So many Europeans will support independence movements which are at a safe distance - actively encourage the break up of the former Yugoslavia, USSR. etc. Will wear 'Free Tibet' stickers on their cars, support the claims of the Kurds, Palestinians etc. But when it gets closer to their doorstep then it is time to clam up and support the status quo - sickening.

 

Where does it end though? There's some nutters campaigning for an independent Canvey Island. If 51% of Canvey Island votes Out, should it just be granted?

 

What’s your position on Catalonia and all the examples which you have given?

 

I heard about that one - there's also a Mercian independence party. However the British are fortunate enough to live in a country which allows referendums without sending the police in with rubber bullets to stop it. Nor is there a constitution in Britain which claims the country to be eternal and indivisible and which was formed only 2 years after the death of a bloody dictator. This apparent constitution (from 1977) was written at a time in which the entire civil service in Spain (the police as well) was the same as that which had served under Franco. The part about indivisibility (and article 155) were included at the request of the Spanish military. What other solution is there than a unilateral declaration of independence when working with a government which offers no legal road to independence, and which has refused requests for a legal referendum on 18 occasions ?

 

I support their right to self determination ie. to be able to have a legal referendum on the matter (in the way that Scotland did). As for the others - I support Kurdish independence, but am unsure about the others. Maybe we should stop and think how many nations actually began their histories with a unilateral declaration of independence, which was, at the time of doing, illegal. The USA., most latin American countries, several former British colonies and some European countries such as Belgium, Portugal, Albania, Slovenia, Croatia etc. all began their histories in this way.

 

And the way Britain did re brexit.

 

I wouldn't draw a parallel between the 2 Col. Nobody stepped in and said that the Brexit referendum was illegal, or unconstitutional and the EU. did not send over para military police to drag people out of polling booths - had they done so, I also would have been a Brexiter. The mistake being made over Catalonia is for the EU. to believe that the national borders of Europe are set for all time as if in stone - like giant prisons, as if history had come to an end. Europe's borders have been constantly changing throughout history and the EU. should be flexible enough to adapt to that.

 

All very Fotherington-Thomas. Unclear to me whether you think any small group of highly motivated people who lobby for binding referenda on behalf of alleged silent majorities should get their way. Is there a logical reason to restrict the size of the unit asking for self determination? Is violence to achieve self determination, as in many of the examples you quote, justified?

The Spanish government and Catalan separatists are jointly ****ing this up. Less than 40% of the population voted for independence. The separatists have no mandate. The Spanish only needed to follow through on the increased autonomy promised a decade ago and none of this would have happened. Ada Colau, the excellent left wing Mayor of Barcelona, who could not be more Catalonian has condemned the actions of the Madrid government and criticised the separatists for rushing headlong into this on the basis of a misrepresented referendum result. ****wits all. You and I have no idea what the EU is doing behind the scenes (Donald Tusk is calling for calm and dialogue) but as Spain is a treaty member of the EU and Catalonia is included under this with no separate treaty it’s not hard to guess who they are obliged to support. As I notice the U.K. and other EU nations have already done.

 

You say that the separatists have no mandate ok. we do not know how the other 57% would have voted, but why is this ? Could it just be that a lot of the others were afraid to get their brains beaten out by trying to vote ? It was the Spanish government and their repressive police who hindered a full vote from taking place. I have not justified the use of violence in the cause of separatism and the Catalans have not shown it. In the one other case in which I supported independence ie. the Kurds - most of the violence has come from others eg. the Turkish state. When we talk about Spain we are forgetting that it was the most successfull Fascist state in the World ie. Franco died peacefully in bed after ruling for 40 years - his apparatus outlived him by many more.

 

You can’t guess how people would vote, those who were against were largely going to boycott anyway. You obviously know nothing of Spain if you think it is a fascist state, a disgusting and ignorant slur. Its turnaround to an open, Democratic and economically prosperous country so quickly after Franco’s death, with no serious violence despite being deeply divided country, and with many Republicans possibly justified in seeking revenge and refraining from doing so, was nothing short of amazing.

Unlike you I would justify the use of violence in seeking freedom from repressive regimes, empires etc. Spain is none of those things, it has a stupid government at the moment, is all. If you understood anything about this issue you would know that the Catalans want to keep more of their tax money in Catalonia (just like the Lega Nord and the Lega Veneta in Italy) and maximise their autonomy. Now these idiots have got themselves in an place they will struggle to get out of.

The most successful fascist state in the world has been the People’s Republic of China, closely followed by the Democratic People’s Republic of Korea.

 

I was referring, somewhat clumsily, to the British voting in a referendum to become a free Nation again.

 

Can you answer me why any research into the fate of the 200,000 people listed as missing during the Franco regime is still stifled today ? How criticism of his regime is also censored and how trials of human rights violations can only be tried in Bueno Aires. Can a democratic regime cling to a constitution which was constituted only 2 years after the death of a dictator who sent 500,000 people to death camps - and who has never been officially discredited, in fact still has statues of himself in Spain. Does a democracy state that it is indivisible so that people are forced to live in it against their will ? Does a democracy send in para military police with rubber bullets against unarmed people who only want to vote ? Are democracies so afraid of referendums that they resort to this ? If you think that this is only about tax and money, then read up on the atrocities of the Franco regime against Catalonia - how the last person to declare independence died in one of those death camps of Franco. Has the Spanish state ever officially apologized for any of its past acts - or really tried to correct them ?

 

I'm no expert, but some commentators have been referring to Spain stepping back to Franco's fascist times.

 

Do you know anything about the Spanish Civil War? It was a civil war, cities against the countryside, Catholics against the secularists and ideologues. It wasn’t a minority imposing its will on the majority. The army split down the middle, the Nationalists got 100,000 volunteers and the Republicans 120,000 before both sides started conscripting. Madrid suffered just as much from the Nationalists as Barcelona, both sides committed atrocities. If you want a reckoning up 40 years after one side (the wrong one from my perspective) won, what would you get? Another civil war.

I have Spanish nieces and a nephew. My brother’s father in law, a lawyer, was imprisoned by Franco for a bit. He, like many others, just wanted to relish the freedom of the ending of fascism and build the future. How do I know - I asked him, specifically, about this, and he reckoned so many people were involved in Franco’s regime that the Pacto Di Olvido - pact of forgetting - was the only option. It was a deliberate, collective policy. Including the socialists who formed the government for most of the 80s. The Catalans bought in as well, and benefitted even more than the rest from the economic results. Again the admittedly professional, cosmopolitan Catalans I have talked to over two visits to Barcelona this year all told me that while they wanted maximum autonomy hardly anyone really wanted real independence.

I’m sorry I’m being combative on this, you’ve caught me on a bad day for this kind of thing. I’m a bit tired of people (and I’m well aware I do it to) imposing their view of what is right and wrong on others. In the case of Spain they reached their own way forward after a dreadful era. It might not fit with your world view and sense of justice, or perhaps with mine, but that’s not the point is it? It’s very easy to take the moral high ground when you have nothing at stake. And now I am very afraid that the Spanish and Catalans that they are about to take a giant step backwards. I’ll leave it there.

I think that there is an element of separatist propaganda to this, but the heavy police presence at the referendum did not augur well. I think the term ‘fascist’ is thrown around too easily, particularly by the left.

 

I'm not just talking about the Spanish Civil War Stan. I said that Spain was the most successfull Fascist state (then not now) because Franco ruled for 40 years and died peacefully in his bed - not through suicide in a bunker in Berlin or deposed and hung like Mussolini. His human rights violations were not limited to the Spanish civil war - apparently Heinrich Himmler had been shocked by the concentration camps in Spain when he visited the country in 1941. It all abated a little after 1945 but there were still political prisoners, still institutionalized torture and still disappeared persons (200,000 between 1945 and 1975). Can there ever be such a thing as a general amnesty for all of his henchmen ? Imagine that Germany had done the same. When the Fascist regime disappeared with his death the same people continued in office - you cannot replace a complete civil service, police force, military overnight. The same people who had served under Franco were the same people who wrote their constitution - which was 'approved' and amended by the military. This is the 'legal document' which the EU. is now claiming to be holy.

 

Can I ask, has the Catalan crisis changed the mind of anyone about staying in the EU ?
A couple of people I know used the situation to strengthen their resolve that the right decision was made about ‘Brexit’ and wondered if any ‘remainers’ were now having second thoughts ?