Off Topic The Politics Thread

[sb_73]

Well no, I can't conceive a state without time, because it's not possible given the rules of expansion, entropy and decay that govern the physical universe we are inhabiting. For something to happen, there must be a time period for it to happen in.

And I know the concept of time is just a way we measure the change between one state and another, but we're measuring something that is the major enabler for everything, just as oxygen, fuel and an ignition source are the enablers for fire. take any one of those away and fire doesn't happen. Same with time - take it away, and nothing happens.

There's no 'timeless state' because you then get to the position of absolute entropy (and the fact that this state can be reached is further proof of how intrinsic time itself is to basically everything).

As for my 'refusal' to offer evidence for God, I don't need to. I look around and see what I would call evidence, just as you look around and derive different conclusions from the same evidence. I very much doubt there's anything I can say or do that would prove either of our positions to your satisfaction, other than killing you and then you'll either see everything or nothing. By that time, of course, you couldn't let me know either way, and so I guess we'll just have to wait in expectation/hope/dismissiveness and see for ourselves...

I was offering to offer evidence against the existence of God, as you requested when you declined to offer evidence for his/her/its existence, but first I need to know what kind of God we are talking about. If you don't want to play just say. I have no expectation of changing your or anyone else's mind, I just enjoy the debate.

I'll come back to you on the time stuff, I'm intrigued in it now.

 

[rangercol]

I'm prepared to accept that I'm not able to comprehend 'nothing', Col. Or infinity for that matter. My mind is too tiny, but I can live with that.

That's not what I asked. I wasn't having a pop, it was a serious question.

Stephen Hawking has tried to offer a theory of the big bang coming from nothing. The bits I could understand left me unconvinced. For me, something caused the big bang. I was just asking if you can live with believing the big bang happened and came from nothing. not whether you could comprehend "nothing".

 

[rangercol]

I was offering to offer evidence against the existence of God, as you requested when you declined to offer evidence for his/her/its existence, but first I need to know what kind of God we are talking about. If you don't want to play just say. I have no expectation of changing your or anyone else's mind, I just enjoy the debate.

I'll come back to you on the time stuff, I'm intrigued in it now.

You know I agree with most of what you say about religion mate, but what evidence do you have that there is no God/Creator/Intelligence creating thingwhatsit etc?
Time is indeed a fascinating subject with lots of new theories out there. Time travel can happen when you go go fast enough as time slows down for you but not everyone else. I struggle to understand most of it mind!!

 

[sb_73]

You know I agree with most of what you say about religion mate, but what evidence do you have that there is no God/Creator/Intelligence creating thingwhatsit etc?
Time is indeed a fascinating subject with lots of new theories out there. Time travel can happen when you go go fast enough as time slows down for you but not everyone else. I struggle to understand most of it mind!!

No evidence against a prime mover/creator type God (neither is there any evidence for it, and even if you accept it it begs the question how was that god created). I think the main attraction of it is the human urge to grant agency to events - things happen because someone/something has caused it, rather than things just happening. I have plenty of interesting arguments against a god who is claimed to be all seeing, all powerful, interested in us as individuals and the essence and source of goodness. Won't convert any believers though.

I was told to sit at the back of the class and keep quiet in physics at age 13, wasn't even allowed to take an o level in it. So I struggle with the time stuff, but think I just about get why someone who travels very fast to the edge of the solar system and back would have aged less than the people he left on earth by the time he got back.

Of course a prime mover god created everything, it also created time........

 

[rangercol]

No evidence against a prime mover/creator type God (neither is there any evidence for it, and even if you accept it it begs the question how was that god created). I think the main attraction of it is the human urge to grant agency to events - things happen because someone/something has caused it, rather than things just happening. I have plenty of interesting arguments against a god who is claimed to be all seeing, all powerful, interested in us as individuals and the essence and source of goodness. Won't convert any believers though.

I was told to sit at the back of the class and keep quiet in physics at age 13, wasn't even allowed to take an o level in it. So I struggle with the time stuff, but think I just about get why someone who travels very fast to the edge of the solar system and back would have aged less than the people he left on earth by the time he got back.

Of course a prime mover god created everything, it also created time........

Gravity warps time as swell as space, so the higher you are the faster time travels. The lower you are to the ground the more you're affected by gravity and time moves slower.
as you move higher, time speeds up as gravity's pull weakens.

 

[Lawrence Jacoby]

Evidence today looks a bit weak to the smart mice as we have become very cynical about information from almost every source

The rapid technological revolution has made this even harder to align our thoughts with those in times when man was less educated or free depending on what way you think

We can either travel back nor race forward in time and we can only deal with now and the power of now

Having faith in the present for me is key otherwise what do I have apart from a troubled mind and knowing what a troubled mind feels like from my own past I am make a reasonable comparison of myself

The challenge and questions I believe are all a part of the test of life
We find things out as we go along

The essence of a higher spiritual power would only want it that way

I value science to the tune of about 1% currently why? Because man made it

 

[sb_73]

Evidence today looks a bit weak to the smart mice as we have become very cynical about information from almost every source

The rapid technological revolution has made this even harder to align our thoughts with those in times when man was less educated or free depending on what way you think

We can either travel back nor race forward in time and we can only deal with now and the power of now

Having faith in the present for me is key otherwise what do I have apart from a troubled mind and knowing what a troubled mind feels like from my own past I am make a reasonable comparison of myself

The challenge and questions I believe are all a part of the test of life
We find things out as we go along

The essence of a higher spiritual power would only want it that way

I value science to the tune of about 1% currently why? Because man made it

Man made the higher spiritual power too. Why trust one drug more than another?

 

[Lawrence Jacoby]

Man made the higher spiritual power too. Why trust one drug more than another?

Discovery and choice
I went shopping

 

[Stroller]

That's not what I asked. I wasn't having a pop, it was a serious question.

Stephen Hawking has tried to offer a theory of the big bang coming from nothing. The bits I could understand left me unconvinced. For me, something caused the big bang. I was just asking if you can live with believing the big bang happened and came from nothing. not whether you could comprehend "nothing".

I didn't think you were having a pop, Col. My point was that I have no comprehension of these things, but I don't let it bother me. For me, it is as difficult to understand 'nothing' as it is to understand infinity. Is 'nothing' possible? I'm as curious as you are, but I'm prepared to accept that I'm likely to die wondering. Some people need the reassurance of religion. I don't.

 

[rangercol]

I didn't think you were having a pop, Col. My point was that I have no comprehension of these things, but I don't let it bother me. For me, it is as difficult to understand 'nothing' as it is to understand infinity. Is 'nothing' possible? I'm as curious as you are, but I'm prepared to accept that I'm likely to die wondering. Some people need the reassurance of religion. I don't.

Yeah.........I get the reassurance people need from religion and when I was younger I did too. I now see it for what it is and don't like the way it has caused so much trouble and hatred. I also realise now that I'm a little better read that each religion is a copy of one that went before and that they're all created by man.
Unfortunately, although I've accepted that I'll almost certainly die not being any the wiser concerning the origins of the universe I really struggle to accept not knowing!! I WANT TO KNOW GOD DAMMIT!!

 

[Lawrence Jacoby]

The history of me includes 20 years in pharmaceuticals where I made profit from sickness as I was in the genetic division. I then went onto design media in the advertising industry and still in that

All for money and more money

I needed a deeper review

Still too big a hypocrite today but a stock check for me has only done good since then I believe

 

[Lawrence Jacoby]

Yeah.........I get the reassurance people need from religion and when I was younger I did too. I now see it for what it is and don't like the way it has caused so much trouble and hatred. I also realise now that I'm a little better read that each religion is a copy of one that went before and that they're all created by man.
Unfortunately, although I've accepted that I'll almost certainly die not being any the wiser concerning the origins of the universe I really struggle to accept not knowing!! I WANT TO KNOW GOD DAMMIT!![/
QUOTE]

I now believe this crossroads comes to all humans but don't forget it works the other way ... many people who had religion forced upon them at an early age often denounce religion
We must never force our beliefs onto and into people lives as I believe it's cheating the very test of our own lives

Religion holds a tangled mess of difference and my answer to the pushers example The JW is they do more harm than good. I actually do not agree with their ideas at all so I agree religion is guilty of eating itself and must carry the blame of failure

That doesn't stop each one imo to search for themselves

 

[durbar2003]

The history of me includes 20 years in pharmaceuticals where I made profit from sickness as I was in the genetic division. I then went onto design media in the advertising industry and still in that

All for money and more money

I needed a deeper review

Still too big a hypocrite today but a stock check for me has only done good since then I believe

Believing doesn't help when you get run over by a bus.

 

[kiwiqpr]

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[Ranger4ever]

You know I agree with most of what you say about religion mate, but what evidence do you have that there is no God/Creator/Intelligence creating thingwhatsit etc?
Time is indeed a fascinating subject with lots of new theories out there. Time travel can happen when you go go fast enough as time slows down for you but not everyone else. I struggle to understand most of it mind!!

Time is only a measurement created by humans to understand the naturally occurring cosmic processes. It is no more a concept than us believing QPR to be the greatest football team on the planet (anyone disagree). As far as religion is concerned, the essence of religion should be to teach us how to live as human beings, not a doctrine of beliefs in an omniscient divine being. Through religion we learn how to live our lives and be tolerant and understanding of one another.

Faith on the other hand is what motivates us to harness our beliefs. It is particularly important when faced with adversity in our lives and provides strength and character to help humankind to cope.

God bless you all!!

 

[Lawrence Jacoby]

Believing doesn't help when you get run over by a bus.

Well all I can do is wait to find that out

 

[KooPeeArr]

I'm no physicist so probably spouting my usual rubbish but my guess would be that since time slows as gravity increases so regressing to the Big Bang sees time slowing to an infintessimal speed (or passing) of what it is now (although if you were there and could survive it would seem as linear as always).

That would mean that the actual point where there was nothing could never be reached since time would keep slowing the closer you've got.

Essentially the Universe came from a singularity (in mathematical terms) but the beginning can never be reached. Unless you could exist outside the Universe where you would possibly witness the whole thing in real time (not possible but an interesting aside).

I think (if memory serves) that singularities like this also exist in black holes.

It's fascinating but doesn't sound like something a divine being would conjure up.

As I say, probably rubbish and worthy of ridicule by a qualified person.

 

[Stroller]

As a good friend of mine used to say, 'I know nothing, but I'll tell you this.............'

 

[Stroller]

Time is only a measurement created by humans to understand the naturally occurring cosmic processes. It is no more a concept than us believing QPR to be the greatest football team on the planet (anyone disagree). As far as religion is concerned, the essence of religion should be to teach us how to live as human beings, not a doctrine of beliefs in an omniscient divine being. Through religion we learn how to live our lives and be tolerant and understanding of one another.

Faith on the other hand is what motivates us to harness our beliefs. It is particularly important when faced with adversity in our lives and provides strength and character to help humankind to cope.

God bless you all!!

I don't need religion to teach me how to live thank you very much, and I don't need to have faith in anything to help me cope with adversity. I'll do just fine with my own code.

 

[Lawrence Jacoby]

Each to their own
The adaption to this era of knowledge I believe still will leave people unfulfilled. This coming from a man who has immersed himself in tech and trend from the get go and found the only peace in the let go
I maintain that we have adopted a culture where everyone thinks they are super smart eventually you have to accept that you are not

This forum itself would have been a major project 10 years ago now a junior school pupil can build one and never understand the root science

So of course any science advances are great and there to enhance

The question of where I got my living codes from is still there and often brushed aside imo