Off Topic The Politics Thread

[TheBigDipper]

It would appear that you would rather Brexit failed just so that you can say that you were right all along. Quite sad that.

I'll let Stan speak for himself. I don't know anyone (including me) in the country who doesn't want to see Brexit work. If it does, we'll all benefit. What's the issue is no-one seems able to explain in any credible way just how that is possible. As far as I can tell, it's all hopes and dreams and no plan. Brexit not working - because it's just too hard to do it without taking a huge hit of collateral damage on the economy - seems the likely outcome.

The optimists among us will say that it will all be alright in the end and that people who ask for more detail, or more proof, or more certainty are just pessimists.

Pessimists is what optimists call realists.

 

[sb_73]

There's plenty of positive news out there, you simply choose to ignore it.
Most MPs cheated on their expenses, it was the "done" thing and most thought it was a legitimate way to top up their wages. I don't condone it however!!
It would probably be quicker to look up how many MPs didn't cheat on their expenses.

The old Nationalism dig is wearing a little thin now.
As for a counter argument, I have done my fair share. I can't be arsed anymore.

It would appear that you would rather Brexit failed just so that you can say that you were right all along. Quite sad that.

Apologies if it came across as a 'nationalism' dig, that wasn't intended. I know you are a patriot, as am I, it's just our perspectives that differ.

As to wanting Brexit to fail, I'm just looking for damage limitation. In my terms, which I am quite aware are different to yours, there is no way it can be a success. Just as for you no matter what happened had we chosen to stay in would you have felt it to be a 'success'. At the moment though what Inwant is immaterial, as there is a vanishingly small chance I will get it. What I am pointing out, obviously to your irritation, are things that I think are whittling away at what people who voted for Brexit wanted. The stuff about Australia, India, Canada etc wanting preferable immigration status for their citizens as part of trade deals is really fine by me, I have no problem with it. It's what the 52% think of it that interests me.

 

[rangercol]

Apologies if it came across as a 'nationalism' dig, that wasn't intended. I know you are a patriot, as am I, it's just our perspectives that differ.

As to wanting Brexit to fail, I'm just looking for damage limitation. In my terms, which I am quite aware are different to yours, there is no way it can be a success. Just as for you no matter what happened had we chosen to stay in would you have felt it to be a 'success'. At the moment though what Inwant is immaterial, as there is a vanishingly small chance I will get it. What I am pointing out, obviously to your irritation, are things that I think are whittling away at what people who voted for Brexit wanted. The stuff about Australia, India, Canada etc wanting preferable immigration status for their citizens as part of trade deals is really fine by me, I have no problem with it. It's what the 52% think of it that interests me.

Much of what you post doesn't irritate me at all. I too have no problem with a visa and trade deal situation in principle.

I just find all the negativity surrounding brexit so defeatist. This Country will survive and prosper long after the EU has crashed and burned. I signed up for some short term pain when I voted leave and I really can't wait for this country to free itself from the controlling, closed shop, anti-democratic tentacles of the self serving, corrupt EU.

 

[kiwiqpr]

Apologies if it came across as a 'nationalism' dig, that wasn't intended. I know you are a patriot, as am I, it's just our perspectives that differ.

As to wanting Brexit to fail, I'm just looking for damage limitation. In my terms, which I am quite aware are different to yours, there is no way it can be a success. Just as for you no matter what happened had we chosen to stay in would you have felt it to be a 'success'. At the moment though what Inwant is immaterial, as there is a vanishingly small chance I will get it. What I am pointing out, obviously to your irritation, are things that I think are whittling away at what people who voted for Brexit wanted. The stuff about Australia, India, Canada etc wanting preferable immigration status for their citizens as part of trade deals is really fine by me, I have no problem with it. It's what the 52% think of it that interests me.

i think more new zealanders should be let in

 

[sb_73]

i think more new zealanders should be let in

I've told you before, we have sufficient bar staff, thanks very much. And we're good for shepherds too.

 

[kiwiqpr]

Apparently we were the first to get a free trade deal with the Chinese
You can borrow our negotiators if you want

 

[YorkshireHoopster]

Apparently we were the first to get a free trade deal with the Chinese
You can borrow our negotiators if you want

Sorry - you mean to say you were conned into giving the Chinese the right freely to destroy your own competing businesses and buy up the ones they can't. No thanks. When your negotiators are next in session with their counterparts perhaps they could put in a word for all the various species in the world who have been driven to the brink of extinction in order to promote the fertility of Chinese men not to mention the steel producers who have been driven out of business. Look out Kiwi. The smog from the Cjhinese mainland is coming to a beach near you in the next few days.

 

[kiwiqpr]

Don't have to worry about the Chinese too much
Most of our businesses were bought long ago by the yanks brits and aussies

 

[durbar2003]

Yes but theYank, Brit and Aussie businesses are owned by the Chinese.

 

[sb_73]

Here you go Col, a positive (perhaps) view on Brexit.

A pro Brexit economist (proper one, Professor at Cardiff Uni) will be publishing a report which says that while trade deals with everyone, especially the EU, would be the preferred way forward, the U.K. could unilaterally abolish all trade tariffs on imports, which would lead to lots of cheap imports for U.K. consumers and pressure on British producers to become more productive, all worth a total of £135bn to the economy, when deregulation of UK industry and services is also added in.

Other economists (naturally) disagree. Such is the way of economists.

 

[rangercol]

Here you go Col, a positive (perhaps) view on Brexit.

A pro Brexit economist (proper one, Professor at Cardiff Uni) will be publishing a report which says that while trade deals with everyone, especially the EU, would be the preferred way forward, the U.K. could unilaterally abolish all trade tariffs on imports, which would lead to lots of cheap imports for U.K. consumers and pressure on British producers to become more productive, all worth a total of £135bn to the economy, when deregulation of UK industry and services is also added in.

Other economists (naturally) disagree. Such is the way of economists.

Yep. There are positive and negative views abound. It is hard to know who to believe, who's right, who's wrong, who has a vested interest in their side of the argument etc etc. We're all swayed by our particular bias as we know.

There are plenty of positive attitudes out there. Another is that the EU would be mad to turn down our offer of a trade deal on our terms when all the numbers are crunched:

https://www.thesun.co.uk/news/4280639/charlie-elphicke-eu-free-trade-tariff/

 

[YorkshireHoopster]

Here you go Col, a positive (perhaps) view on Brexit.

A pro Brexit economist (proper one, Professor at Cardiff Uni) will be publishing a report which says that while trade deals with everyone, especially the EU, would be the preferred way forward, the U.K. could unilaterally abolish all trade tariffs on imports, which would lead to lots of cheap imports for U.K. consumers and pressure on British producers to become more productive, all worth a total of £135bn to the economy, when deregulation of UK industry and services is also added in.

Other economists (naturally) disagree. Such is the way of economists.

Deregulation is one of those wonderful buzz words which few actually seem to realise what it actually means. Like red tape. It's fashionable always to seek to bash it particularly if you knock on the head a few concepts which also suffer from generalised labelling such as 'political correctness' or 'health and safety'. Dismantle everything that has been built up over many years to protect society whether it be the welfare state, consumers, users of public transport, tenants in rented accommodation both public and private, or workers and those who through no fault of their own cannot find work in the interest of allowing 'entrepreneurs' and financial experts a totally free hand to peddle their wares without being answerable to the law

Distinguished economics professor or not be careful what you wish for. But then a flight to the bottom has already been threatened by this government if they don't get their way in the negotiations

 

[sb_73]

Deregulation is one of those wonderful buzz words which few actually seem to realise what it actually means. Like red tape. It's fashionable always to seek to bash it particularly if you knock on the head a few concepts which also suffer from generalised labelling such as 'political correctness' or 'health and safety'. Dismantle everything that has been built up over many years to protect society whether it be the welfare state, consumers, users of public transport, tenants in rented accommodation both public and private, or workers and those who through no fault of their own cannot find work in the interest of allowing 'entrepreneurs' and financial experts a totally free hand to peddle their wares without being answerable to the law

Distinguished economics professor or not be careful what you wish for. But then a flight to the bottom has already been threatened by this government if they don't get their way in the negotiations

Of course I think it's bullshit, but thought I'd try posting without personal spin for a change. For a start the combination of no tariffs and deregulation opens the doors to a flood of products made by exploited labour (though I suspect we already have a fair bit of this) to no standards at all.

But it's an option, it's good to have an idea of the full range of possibilities.

 

[sb_73]

Yep. There are positive and negative views abound. It is hard to know who to believe, who's right, who's wrong, who has a vested interest in their side of the argument etc etc. We're all swayed by our particular bias as we know.

There are plenty of positive attitudes out there. Another is that the EU would be mad to turn down our offer of a trade deal on our terms when all the numbers are crunched:

https://www.thesun.co.uk/news/4280639/charlie-elphicke-eu-free-trade-tariff/

I think you'd have to factor in the relative strength of the currencies to get a true picture of the impact of tariffs Col. And the EU, because of its sheer size, has a greater capacity to develop its own manufacturing to make up for more expensive British imports. But doubtless a big factor in the future relationship discussions, which we could get on to if we agreed on divorce bill and citizenship.

What I don't understand is how all this works with services, which make up the majority of our exports.

 

[Uber_Hoop]

An interesting perspective, albeit probably overly simplistic, but no doubt easily dismissed on account of the fact that these are the thoughts of the wrong Hitchens, i,e. the mad, untrendy, alive one....

http://hitchensblog.mailonsunday.co...wk-about-brexit-and-miss-the-easy-escape.html

 

[sb_73]

An interesting perspective, albeit probably overly simplistic, but no doubt easily dismissed on account of the fact that these are the thoughts of the wrong Hitchens, i,e. the mad, untrendy, alive one....

http://hitchensblog.mailonsunday.co...wk-about-brexit-and-miss-the-easy-escape.html

You missed out 'less talented, god fearing' Ubes. In this instance If we can't stay in I'd agree with him and go for Norway, but he omits to include the fact that (I think) this would stop us from having our 'own' trade treaties with non EU countries, which I think some people think is important.

Hitchens P is actually a good writer and usually thought provoking. I sense he doesn't really put his back into the stuff he does for the Mail.

 

[rangercol]

I think you'd have to factor in the relative strength of the currencies to get a true picture of the impact of tariffs Col. And the EU, because of its sheer size, has a greater capacity to develop its own manufacturing to make up for more expensive British imports. But doubtless a big factor in the future relationship discussions, which we could get on to if we agreed on divorce bill and citizenship.

What I don't understand is how all this works with services, which make up the majority of our exports.

I suspect that there are pros and cons everywhere and I don't profess to being knowledgeable enough to be able to debate them all. I just feel that there are just as many, if not more pros as cons.

 

[Uber_Hoop]

You missed out 'less talented, god fearing' Ubes. In this instance If we can't stay in I'd agree with him and go for Norway, but he omits to include the fact that (I think) this would stop us from having our 'own' trade treaties with non EU countries, which I think some people think is important.

Hitchens P is actually a good writer and usually thought provoking. I sense he doesn't really put his back into the stuff he does for the Mail.

The measurement of talent depends upon whose ear one's paying falls, Stanners.

I would be interested to learn whether your belief that the Norway model precludes own trade treaties is correct. I'm not that interested to look it up myself, so would appreciate it if anybody else could be arsed to do the legwork.

PH's Mail blog is generally an interesting read, but I'd agree that his actual MoS piece is a bit too tabloid. He can come across as a broken record, but there can be value in being a dog with a bone at times - I certainly think his comments regarding the perpetrators of violent crime and drug abuse merit further research.

 

[sb_73]

The measurement of talent depends upon whose ear one's paying falls, Stanners.

I would be interested to learn whether your belief that the Norway model precludes own trade treaties is correct. I'm not that interested to look it up myself, so would appreciate it if anybody else could be arsed to do the legwork.

PH's Mail blog is generally an interesting read, but I'd agree that his actual MoS piece is a bit too tabloid. He can come across as a broken record, but there can be value in being a dog with a bone at times - I certainly think his comments regarding the perpetrators of violent crime and drug abuse merit further research.

Your wish is my command. Here's a useful info graphic. It's seems that I was wrong, and this makes me think the Norway option is a good one (though free movement of people may be an issue for some. Cough)

You must log in or register to see images

I feel a bit sorry for Hitchens P. He is a committed and passionate bloke, who has shifted from one ideological extreme to another and who knows he is now in a losing position, as he himself says 'a pessimistic Christian', who longs for a country built on values which he knows will never apply again.

 

[Uber_Hoop]

Your wish is my command. Here's a useful info graphic. It's seems that I was wrong, and this makes me think the Norway option is a good one (though free movement of people may be an issue for some. Cough)

You must log in or register to see images

I feel a bit sorry for Hitchens P. He is a committed and passionate bloke, who has shifted from one ideological extreme to another and who knows he is now in a losing position, as he himself says 'a pessimistic Christian', who longs for a country built on values which he knows will never apply again.

I'm told he has a nice bum though.