Off Topic The Politics Thread
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she already looks like a sex doll
(whatever one of those is)
A - The Telegraph, that bastion of measured reporting owned by David and Frederick Barclay, the billionaire owners of The Daily Telegraph, Sunday Telegraph and the Spectator who reside offshore in Monaco and the Channel Islands to avoid paying any British tax - yet use their wealth and media ownership to influence the coverage and reporting of the most important social change in a generation.
B - Liam Fox... or to give him his full title - the disgraced former defence secretary, Dr Liam Fox - a proven expenses cheat that in 2009 was found to have the largest over-claim on expenses, and as a result was forced to repay the most money.
Yup. Two entirely reliable and trustworthy gatekeepers of information there... next?
A - The Telegraph, that bastion of measured reporting owned by David and Frederick Barclay, the billionaire owners of The Daily Telegraph, Sunday Telegraph and the Spectator who reside offshore in Monaco and the Channel Islands to avoid paying any British tax - yet use their wealth and media ownership to influence the coverage and reporting of the most important social change in a generation.
B - Liam Fox... or to give him his full title - the disgraced former defence secretary, Dr Liam Fox - a proven expenses cheat that in 2009 was found to have the largest over-claim on expenses, and as a result was forced to repay the most money.
Yup. Two entirely reliable and trustworthy gatekeepers of information there... next?
Just as a matter of interest, in what way does becoming a tax exile diminish one's trustworthiness and reliability? It may lessen their standing in the eyes of others from an ethical perspective, but does the rest necessarily follow?
It's this kind of patronising comment that so riles many of us who voted to leave. You imply that we are all too thick or ill-informed to make a decision.
I knew what I was voting for...........to leave the EU. It wasn't a complicated decision, although I knew that the process would be.
You and other remainers are reaching increasingly high levels of hysteria over this.
We had the vote. Both sides lied, with the remain side making all manner of threats if we voted to leave.
For my entire adult life it has been clear to me that the British have always been Euro-sceptics and politicians over the years have shied away from the issue in the knowledge that the polls showed overwhelmingly that we would leave!
You still haven't answered my earlier question...............how would you have reacted to me had the result been 52% to remain and I was banging on, with increasing desperation and hysteria about the need for another vote because I didn't like the result first time around?
Not sure how you read 'patronising' into that, col. It's pretty accurate as I can see. I remember trying to get answers to what 'leave' actually looked like from many people at the time, and nobody knew. They mentioned a lot of things, like less immigrants (which was a mildly racist stance I could never bring myself to agree with, even if it was something desirable), prevention of the entire Turkish population arriving (which was never going to happen), the 'unelected' nature of our MEPs (which we do actually vote for, and on a PR system that many would want for our own elections), saving billions in money (despite there being far more subsidies than our payments actually totalled) and 'sovereignty' (despite not being able to explain what that actually was, nor name a single law that they believed we would not have made anyway).
Face it - whilst the referendum question was a binary choice, the level of thought that needed to go into a Leave vote was anything but, and there was precious little actual knowledge floating around with which to come to that decision aside from a jingoistic reaction to 'bloody unelected foreigners forcing their rules on us at our expense'.
And fwiw, had the vote been to Remain, I would NOT have been trying to shout you down and shut you up. Your right to carry on the debate would exist, just as those of us who wanted to stay in the EU have the right to carry on now, without being harangued, shouted down, and insulted by being called 'remoaners' and 'traitors'. Something I'm sure you'd never do...
Face it - whilst the referendum question was a binary choice, the level of thought that needed to go into a Leave vote was anything but, and there was precious little actual knowledge floating around with which to come to that decision aside from a jingoistic reaction to 'bloody unelected foreigners forcing their rules on us at our expense'.
And fwiw, had the vote been to Remain, I would NOT have been trying to shout you down and shut you up. Your right to carry on the debate would exist, just as those of us who wanted to stay in the EU have the right to carry on now, without being harangued, shouted down, and insulted by being called 'remoaners' and 'traitors'. Something I'm sure you'd never do...
Shame that 'Dr' Fox failed to give any examples of Brexit good news that the BBC failed to highlight, other than 'you should cover my visits to other countries more'. In fact they did last night, with the electric mini to be built by BMW in UK story. Though this is a £10m investment, safeguarding existing jobs rather than creating new ones and entailing no new production lines it's still good news.A - The Telegraph, that bastion of measured reporting owned by David and Frederick Barclay, the billionaire owners of The Daily Telegraph, Sunday Telegraph and the Spectator who reside offshore in Monaco and the Channel Islands to avoid paying any British tax - yet use their wealth and media ownership to influence the coverage and reporting of the most important social change in a generation.
B - Liam Fox... or to give him his full title - the disgraced former defence secretary, Dr Liam Fox - a proven expenses cheat that in 2009 was found to have the largest over-claim on expenses, and as a result was forced to repay the most money.
Yup. Two entirely reliable and trustworthy gatekeepers of information there... next?
If there were a groundswell of opinion it would be hard to argue against - is that not something you too would be prepared to concede?
As I posted earlier, in this thread, the % split wouldn't be enough to elect a golf club chairman, yet the "you lost, get over it!" brigade are adamant that it somehow reflects the 'will of the people' - it doesn't reflect anything of the sort - indeed it simply demonstrates that the country is split and uncommitted.
It's fair to say that some people knew what they wanted from Brexit, but you cannot in any honesty say you know what you were voting for - no-one did and we still don't. There is no detail - I'm not sure I can be any clearer on this point - and I'm sorry of you feel patronised, that's not my intention, but people saying they know what they were voting for is not valid.
And you may believe that the country are Euro-sceptics (based on what I'm unclear), but if that were the case, it is a diminishing perspective when you consider the vote split according to age. Frankly, as more young people reach voting age, the case for Brexit becomes even less 'the will of the people'.
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I am weirdly fascinated by this chlorinated chicken and hormone pumped beef debate. It sounds horrible and looks it on telly, but I'm not too fussy about this stuff, I must eat a fair amount of it because I'm in the US for work 6 or 7 times a year, and I don't ask the origin and production process of the food I'm served in restaurants. I avoid heavily processed and preserved foods in general but that's to manage a particular medical condition rather than general health or ethical reasons.
Seems that chlorinating chicken has no proven adverse effects, the EU food safety people say this. It seems that Europe relies on the whole process being clean rather than giving dead birds a wash. I don't feel too confident that this is the case. Animal welfare is much better in the UK than in the rest of Europe, but we still gave the world BSE. Horse meat sold as beef anyone? Force feeding geese for pate (no problem for me, I like a bit of foie gras)?
I am wondering if we are seeing a weird alliance of some Remainers hoping for the failure of any trade deals, a protectionist British agriculture sector, organic food and animal rights activists and Michael Gove. The fact is if this stuff is available in the UK it will be cheaper and give people more choice. I will still probably buy free range local chicken in the supermarket ('organic' is completely meaningless as far as I can see, the birds still get antbiotics etc), but I can afford to. If it gives some people the choice between an actual home roasted chicken and 'reconstituted chicken warm in the oven nuggets' is that a bad thing?
Anyway, if you season it heavily with tarragon, lemon and black pepper you can barely taste the chlorine.
Seems that chlorinating chicken has no proven adverse effects, the EU food safety people say this. It seems that Europe relies on the whole process being clean rather than giving dead birds a wash. I don't feel too confident that this is the case. Animal welfare is much better in the UK than in the rest of Europe, but we still gave the world BSE. Horse meat sold as beef anyone? Force feeding geese for pate (no problem for me, I like a bit of foie gras)?
I am wondering if we are seeing a weird alliance of some Remainers hoping for the failure of any trade deals, a protectionist British agriculture sector, organic food and animal rights activists and Michael Gove. The fact is if this stuff is available in the UK it will be cheaper and give people more choice. I will still probably buy free range local chicken in the supermarket ('organic' is completely meaningless as far as I can see, the birds still get antbiotics etc), but I can afford to. If it gives some people the choice between an actual home roasted chicken and 'reconstituted chicken warm in the oven nuggets' is that a bad thing?
Anyway, if you season it heavily with tarragon, lemon and black pepper you can barely taste the chlorine.
I'll be honest Col, I would have been mortified by such a narrow Remain victory (though obviously not as mortified as I am by the actual one). I hope I wouldn't ever want anyone to shut up (I want to hear more from racists and religious fundamentalists justifying their views, how else can you show them up with words and argument?) but a certain amount of crowing and mockery would doubtless have been involved.
In fact I think anything other that a crushing Remain win (over 60%) would have left the issue open for years, especially with a Tory government where the civil war within the party would have rumbled on and on. The evident problems with the EU would still be there as well.
To be clear, I'm not telling anyone to shut up or not give opinions and for Willy............my main reason for voting leave had nothing to do with immigration, although I do think it is a concern in some areas. I just feel that asking for a second referendum is not on.
Should we now re-run every referendum that we've ever had as we now, inevitably have more information available than when the votes happened?
Like Goldie has chosen to do, I tried to stay away from this thread as we all just repeat our particular opinions on the matter. I failed to do so, but I'm going to give it another go as we just go around in circles.
Hope to see you at a game sometime.
I actually said that, historically, according to all the polls over the last 35 years or so, the British have been Euro-sceptic and governments have always avoided the question because they knew what the outcome would be.
I find it patronising because you infer that I didn't know what I was doing when I voted to leave. I did.
I wanted out, in the knowledge that there may be some pain along the way, but believing that this Country is great enough to come through that and be able to stand alone, as it has for almost 1,000 years of history.
This doesn't mean being isolated and if the common market had remained just that, without all the political integration that has taken place I wouldn't have had a problem.
I respect your right to have a different opinion.
..and I countered by pointing out that given the changing nature of the voting population - your historic opinion appears to be purely that - history.
"I wanted out, in the knowledge that there may be some pain along the way, but believing that this Country is great enough to come through that and be able to stand alone, as it has for almost 1,000 years of history."
What does this even mean? It's just jingoistic flag waving - I'm sorry but ones feelings are a poor substitute for detail and facts laid out for the electorate to decide on - none of which has been provided in the case for Brexit.
"I wanted out, in the knowledge that there may be some pain along the way, but believing that this Country is great enough to come through that and be able to stand alone, as it has for almost 1,000 years of history."
What does this even mean? It's just jingoistic flag waving - I'm sorry but ones feelings are a poor substitute for detail and facts laid out for the electorate to decide on - none of which has been provided in the case for Brexit.
I disagree with this response so strongly that I feel I should respectfully decline to debate with you further on this subject, for fear of things getting a little over-heated.