Well we had one referendum in 1975 and the people who didn't like the result spent the subsequent 40 years of peace and prosperity moaning about it until they got another one.
As a 'Releaver" I think May/Tories/News/corporateUK has made a mess of Brexit. They must be laughing at us in Europe. We should have just got on with it instead of all this cr2p. We need to make a success of this. Hopefully in 40 years we can have another referendum.
I will be one year off the new retirement age and therefore about ten years off what the retirement age will be in 2057. Or dead. Either way I won't have seen QPR win a cup.
I can only try. No comment on today's news that free movement of people will last until 2023? That of the 44 points discussed under citizenship there is agreement on 22 and fundamental differences on 14 - and this is the subject both sides want a quick agreement on? That the UK wil have to set up its own insurance scheme to replace EHIC for those on holiday in the EU? That the UK will not be able to carry out criminal records checks on EU citizens over here unless their crimes are considered serious enough by the EU? That Business Minister Lord Prior has told businessmen that we are heading for the softest of soft Brexits? That Philip Hammond has got all his cabinet colleagues to back a five year transitional period where we stay in the Customs Union? And that's just what I have picked up in the last 30 minutes, including the time it's taken to write this..... So much to discuss! Elsewhere I am delighted that international police forces are having a go at the dark web. The US military made a massive mistake by making this technology public in order to cover up its own activities by increasing the amount of secret 'noise' out there. I know it has its uses in helping people living under oppressive regimes to communicate anonymously, but overall it needs to be closed down and anyone owning a bitcoin presumed guilty of something or other.
This fails to recognise that many Leavers like me were in favour of, and voted for, the Common Market in 1975. But the EU drive to turn a group of trading nations into one political entity controlled by unelected bureaucrats in Brussels simply alienated people. All this second referendum talk is for the birds and Vince Cable (what a winner he looks likely to be). Leavers would never accept a second referendum because if it was on the cards, the EU would offer us the worst deal possible in the hope of keeping the deep pocket UK in the EU sect. As I've said before, overturning Brexit on this basis would result in civil unrest and a massive recruiting agent for extreme parties
Youll never know Watford we may be taken over by a Billionaire steel giant who will buy us the league like a Chelscum.
I think the the biggest question to come out of all this is what was the second language that Barnier used to seek clarification? Perhaps a masterstroke by our team in waylaying the EU's chief negotiator while he tries to master Welsh? Perhaps it was in German so that it could be aimed at the real power behind our ability to strike a deal - the German motor trade. It could have been Esperanto in an underhand attempt to try to introduce a replacement universal language to English at the last moment. Maybe Klingon because he thought the response would be as clear and consistent in that as it would in any other language.
Spot on Goldie. Put everything else aside because this is the main reason why people like me voted 'leave". As I have said many times that I love Europe but I don't want some muppet from Brussels telling me what I should and shouldn't do. If people want to blame someone blame the muppets in Brussels.
"When the facts change, I change my mind. What do you do, sir?" said John Maynard Keynes, supposedly. Fair enough Goldie, the circumstances were totally different in 2016 than they were in 1975, so you changed the way you voted. My post was a mischievous one, but there is a valid underlying point. The facts may not necessarily have changed substantially thus far, but people understand a bit better now what lies they were told last year, and, by the time a deal is arrived at, they will know exactly what Brexit means. They should be given an opportunity to change their minds once they are in possession of these facts.
But Strolls, you have to get around the fact that if there is to be a second referendum, the EU will, without a shadow of a doubt, go out of its way to give us the worst deal possible. Some of the Brussels brigade still believe they can get the UK to change its mind and will use any opportunity to bring that about. If UK voters had wanted this, they would have voted Liberal at the last election who put a second referendum at the heart of their campaign. If we were blackmailed into a second referendum and ultimately a Remain result based on a terrible deal (of the kind offered to Cameron before the referendum), the resentment of Brexit voters would last a lifetime. And the only way I can see this happening, is if May is unseated, there's a Tory power struggle and vote of no confidence, a general election is called, Corbyn wins and ignoring large numbers of Brexit Labour voters, hands negotiations to Starmer who's a Remainer. If Corbyn did that, I can't see him lasting more than one term. Even under a Norway type deal, UKIP would be massively rejuvinated under an outraged Farage. And there would far bigger splits within the UK populace than we see now. And would the EU reform generally? Not a chance. It's as inflexible as the old Soviet Union.
Why not have a second referendum now then, when the deal is not done and the EU can't play an evil trick on us? Make it a short campaign, the populace are now used to being lied to so that won't work as well a second time, and we can vote not only on the EU but on the competence of the government to negotiate at all. You seem concerned about the resentment of Brexit voters, what about Leave voters? We've had decades of Tory EU haters and others ****ing up British politics with internal party squabbles, get used to the Remainers playing the same stupid games.
We've just had a referendum, but it wasn't the result that the EU and metropolitan liberal elite wanted. So let's have another, so the UK electorate can get it right? That would go down well in the country. Of course, the EU did it to Ireland, but Ireland was a net recipient of EU funds, the UK is a big time net payer. You talk about the rights of Leave voters (I think you mean Remain). If, when the UK has left the EU, Remain supporters want to pursue a policy of rejoining, trumpeting the great merits of the EU, then they are free to do so. But the fact is, if we weren't in the EU now, it's dead certain the electorate would not want to join.
Come on Let's have a " you were all stupid idiots let's have another vote to prove you aren't" referendum Should you accidentally vote against the European overlords we can do it again And again and again
Any arrangement with the EU where we cannot control our own borders, adjudicate on all our own laws and make trade deals with whom we want around the world would certainly not be acceptable to Farage or a large part of the electorate
We've been over this Goldie. During the referendum campaign, Farage (and other leave campaigners) held up the Norwegian model as a shining example of success outside of the EU. Why would he now be outraged if we wind up with this outcome?
Yeah, I meant remain. Why are you so scared of another vote? I'm not really scared of the threats about Brexiters getting cross. The liberal metropolitan elite, citizens of nowhere won't threaten anything, they will just act with their money, influence and power, as they are already. If the government keeps following its meandering course to nowhere, it will just speed up. Money, power and influence looks after itself. I'd like to see the ****s sending death threats to the staff at Great Ormond Street over Charlie Gard, identified and imprisoned. Preferably in a Syrian or North Korean gaol.
If you look back, Farage has been about as clear on Norway, as Corbyn. Cake and eat it. It's pretty clear now he thinks the electorate voted for a clean break _ which is not the same as a hard Brexit. New, tailored trading arrangements have to be put in place. Even the EU accepts that.
