Off Topic The Politics Thread

[sb_73]

Climate change is something I usually shy away from because I find it so terrifying and have no useful ideas on what we should do, other than deindustrialise. Stupidly I have just read about the Permian Extinction (or Great Dying) of 252 million years ago, when 90% of all life on earth (including plants and insects) was wiped out. This was not due to a meteor or other extraterrestrial event, but because volcanoes set lots of the coal and natural gas on earth on fire, realising loads of carbon dioxide, which turned the seas acidic and sent temperatures soaring, killing almost everything.

We are currently digging up and burning fossil fuels much faster than the rate the volcanoes achieved in the Permian.

And The Donald wants us to do it faster.

 

[durbar2003]

Climate change is something I usually shy away from because I find it so terrifying and have no useful ideas on what we should do, other than deindustrialise. Stupidly I have just read about the Permian Extinction (or Great Dying) of 252 million years ago, when 90% of all life on earth (including plants and insects) was wiped out. This was not due to a meteor or other extraterrestrial event, but because volcanoes set lots of the coal and natural gas on earth on fire, realising loads of carbon dioxide, which turned the seas acidic and sent temperatures soaring, killing almost everything.

We are currently digging up and burning fossil fuels much faster than the rate the volcanoes achieved in the Permian.

And The Donald wants us to do it faster.[/QUOTE I don't disagree but coal usage is a lot more in some other countries, China for instance.

China produces more coal than anyone, bar far.

 

[YorkshireHoopster]

Police say 255 people got out of Grenfell Tower, and about 80 died. As both totals are lower than activists say, expect howls of 'cover up'.

This tragedy gives a real insight into Britain today.

- low standards, cost cutting, lack of accountability, lack of concern and care as potential causes
- a group of victims from many different countries, some here illegally
- a magnificent response from the emergency services and ordinary people
- a shoddy, slow and confused response from officialdom
- attempts to exploit the deaths for political gain
- attempts to exploit the deaths and victims by crooks for financial gain
- complete absence of trust, anger dominating, no offers acceptable, investigations condemned before they start
- justice, revenge and compensation become blurred

I lived through the massive ructions of the 70s, but never have I felt I was living in such a fundamentally divided, and increasingly unpleasant, country (I was abroad during the miners strike, that may have been worse). It is only the repeated actions of ordinary people and the people of the front line services that remind me that the core is sound.

Sorry for the bleakness.

Welcome to my world

 

[sb_73]

I was going to post something on our Brexit negotiations/preparations situation. But it's such a shambles it's hard to know where to start. I can't believe even the most ardent Brexiteer thinks this government is doing a good job on this, or even has the slightest idea how to proceed. The EU has published 9 position papers on various aspects of Brexit, we have published 1 (citizenship). Some will say we are 'keeping our powder dry' others like me will suspect that we don't know our position. Davis has said contradictory things about the existence of and need for a 'no deal' plan 4 times over the last 4 weeks. One day we are leaving Euratom or whatever it's called, next we are seeking associate membership. Meanwhile cancer patients will be unsure of whether they can get diagnoses and treatment reliant on radio isotopes imported from the EU. Johnson says the EU can 'go whistle' for a cash settlement, Davis acknowledges that we will be paying until at least 2021. The Great Repeal Bill (which repeals nothing) will get taken to pieces in Parliament, and contains fundamentally undemocratic elements. But to do this work democratically through Parliament may take decades. Brexit minister Steve Baker, who once said he wanted to see the total destruction of the EU, systematically rejects points made by a variety of experts, including the Royal College of Radiologists and the head of the National Audit Office, while maintaining the 'we want to hear ideas from everyone' line of drivel.

I may be a Remainer, but I don't enjoy being embarrassed at every step by my elected representatives. If we are going to do this, at least let's do it with some professionalism and pride. I honestly think we are screwed, not because the EU wants to screw us, but because we have incompetent leaders and no direction. And the alternatives do not offer any hope either.

 

[GoldhawkRoad]

I was going to post something on our Brexit negotiations/preparations situation. But it's such a shambles it's hard to know where to start. I can't believe even the most ardent Brexiteer thinks this government is doing a good job on this, or even has the slightest idea how to proceed. The EU has published 9 position papers on various aspects of Brexit, we have published 1 (citizenship). Some will say we are 'keeping our powder dry' others like me will suspect that we don't know our position. Davis has said contradictory things about the existence of and need for a 'no deal' plan 4 times over the last 4 weeks. One day we are leaving Euratom or whatever it's called, next we are seeking associate membership. Meanwhile cancer patients will be unsure of whether they can get diagnoses and treatment reliant on radio isotopes imported from the EU. Johnson says the EU can 'go whistle' for a cash settlement, Davis acknowledges that we will be paying until at least 2021. The Great Repeal Bill (which repeals nothing) will get taken to pieces in Parliament, and contains fundamentally undemocratic elements. But to do this work democratically through Parliament may take decades. Brexit minister Steve Baker, who once said he wanted to see the total destruction of the EU, systematically rejects points made by a variety of experts, including the Royal College of Radiologists and the head of the National Audit Office, while maintaining the 'we want to hear ideas from everyone' line of drivel.

I may be a Remainer, but I don't enjoy being embarrassed at every step by my elected representatives. If we are going to do this, at least let's do it with some professionalism and pride. I honestly think we are screwed, not because the EU wants to screw us, but because we have incompetent leaders and no direction. And the alternatives do not offer any hope either.

Focus on May and Davis, and ignore the rest (particularly the ridiculous Boris Johnson). The no deal stuff is straightforward - we want a reasonable deal after paying up on our legal commitments. It's in the EU's interest too - Ireland is already asking the EU for financial guarantees for loss of trade (the UK being its biggest export market) in the event of a no deal. But the UK won't enter a punitive deal.

The European Union (Withdrawal) Bill (as the Repeal Bill is now called) will be a long and arduous process. Much will depend on how many Tory rebels there are, and how many Labour Europhobes. Gradually, things will take shape, so chill out for the summer, Stan!

 

[rangercol]

I was going to post something on our Brexit negotiations/preparations situation. But it's such a shambles it's hard to know where to start. I can't believe even the most ardent Brexiteer thinks this government is doing a good job on this, or even has the slightest idea how to proceed. The EU has published 9 position papers on various aspects of Brexit, we have published 1 (citizenship). Some will say we are 'keeping our powder dry' others like me will suspect that we don't know our position. Davis has said contradictory things about the existence of and need for a 'no deal' plan 4 times over the last 4 weeks. One day we are leaving Euratom or whatever it's called, next we are seeking associate membership. Meanwhile cancer patients will be unsure of whether they can get diagnoses and treatment reliant on radio isotopes imported from the EU. Johnson says the EU can 'go whistle' for a cash settlement, Davis acknowledges that we will be paying until at least 2021. The Great Repeal Bill (which repeals nothing) will get taken to pieces in Parliament, and contains fundamentally undemocratic elements. But to do this work democratically through Parliament may take decades. Brexit minister Steve Baker, who once said he wanted to see the total destruction of the EU, systematically rejects points made by a variety of experts, including the Royal College of Radiologists and the head of the National Audit Office, while maintaining the 'we want to hear ideas from everyone' line of drivel.

I may be a Remainer, but I don't enjoy being embarrassed at every step by my elected representatives. If we are going to do this, at least let's do it with some professionalism and pride. I honestly think we are screwed, not because the EU wants to screw us, but because we have incompetent leaders and no direction. And the alternatives do not offer any hope either.

You have as much idea as to what our position is as I do. You don't have an inside line on our negotiating team I presume, so you are simply guessing that we don't have a plan, which plays to your point of view.

 

[West London Willy]

You have as much idea as to what our position is as I do. You don't have an inside line on our negotiating team I presume, so you are simply guessing that we don't have a plan, which plays to your point of view.

Like you're simply guessing that we do?

 

[sb_73]

You have as much idea as to what our position is as I do. You don't have an inside line on our negotiating team I presume, so you are simply guessing that we don't have a plan, which plays to your point of view.

I think if Davis says 4 different things on the same subject within 4 weeks, and then two different things on another subject within 24 hours, I can either assume he's a liar or that he doesn't have a clue.

I don't have an inside line on anything, but I'm allowed to make educated guesses based on what I hear, see and read. If you are happy with what you are seeing,fine, but if I was a Leaver I'd be equally pissed off. They are letting us all down.

Just seen Federer hit an amazing shot at Wimbledon. And now he's coming to the net on a second serve. The greatest.

 

[rangercol]

I think if Davis says 4 different things on the same subject within 4 weeks, and then two different things on another subject within 24 hours, I can either assume he's a liar or that he doesn't have a clue.

I don't have an inside line on anything, but I'm allowed to make educated guesses based on what I hear, see and read. If you are happy with what you are seeing,fine, but if I was a Leaver I'd be equally pissed off. They are letting us all down.

Just seen Federer hit an amazing shot at Wimbledon. And now he's coming to the net on a second serve. The greatest.

I just think that. like most remainers, you're over-playing the negative. But then again, I voted leave knowing there may be some pain and accepted it.

Federer is the greatest tennis player to have lived, without a doubt. Shame Murray wasn't fit though.

 

[Star of David Bardsley]

I just think that. like most remainers, you're over-playing the negative. But then again, I voted leave knowing there may be some pain and accepted it.

Federer is the greatest tennis player to have lived, without a doubt. Shame Murray wasn't fit though.

Speaking as neutrally as possible though, have we been given much to be optimistic about?

 

[rangercol]

Speaking as neutrally as possible though, have we been given much to be optimistic about?

We're leaving the EU to be independent. What's not to like? (Retires a safe distance and awaits the incoming..........................................)

 

[GoldhawkRoad]

Can we please get rid of the ridiculous human rights law, that if the police are pursuing a moped-riding suspect who has allegedly thrown acid in an innocent working person's face, the police have to discontinue the pursuit if the suspect throws off his helmet

 

[sb_73]

I just think that. like most remainers, you're over-playing the negative. But then again, I voted leave knowing there may be some pain and accepted it.

Federer is the greatest tennis player to have lived, without a doubt. Shame Murray wasn't fit though.

It's not a Brexit good or bad issue Col, it's whether the government is doing a decent job, even if I don't like the outcome. What gives you confidence that they are?

You have been clear that you are prepared to accept the pain. What gives you the right to accept it on behalf of other people? I don't know how much your life and work are related to EU, possibly very little, but very many people will have to accept a huge level of pain because their livelihoods are completely dependent on the smooth functioning of a regulated open market of 500 million people. Hopefully the pain will be short term.

We're leaving the EU to be independent. What's not to like? (Retires a safe distance and awaits the incoming..........................................)

Incoming!

In that case the government is doing a truly **** job. To be independent there is no need for a negotiation at all, except to sort out whether we owe anything. We simply quit everything. The negotiation will cede 'independence' in every aspect, because all agreements will be overseen on the EU side by the ECJ, which is apparently a satanic coven. The only way to avoid this is to leave entirely and completely.

On an entirely separate point I read that most people are no better off than they were in 2007 thanks to the financial crash, austerity and so on. That led me to thinking - why should we expect to get better off year on year? For generations, centuries, this wasn't the case. People knew that their lives would be very similar to their parents' lives and their kids would live the same way too. I wonder if they were happier than we seem to be.

 

[GoldhawkRoad]

The negotiation will cede 'independence' in every aspect, because all agreements will be overseen on the EU side by the ECJ, which is apparently a satanic coven. The only way to avoid this is to leave entirely and completely.

The ECJ jurisdiction point hasn't been conceded by the UK. There may well be a compromise - a specially created judicial body with judges from the the UK and the EU.

 

[sb_73]

The ECJ jurisdiction point hasn't been conceded by the UK. There may well be a compromise - a specially created judicial body with judges from the the UK and the EU.

So, you are willing to cede sovereignty to non UK bodies? How is that 'taking back control'? Or reducing 'bureaucracy'?

There is no logical answer to this. Complete break is the only way round it. Leave entirely, no trade deal.

 

[KooPeeArr]

On an entirely separate point I read that most people are no better off than they were in 2007 thanks to the financial crash, austerity and so on. That led me to thinking - why should we expect to get better off year on year? For generations, centuries, this wasn't the case. People knew that their lives would be very similar to their parents' lives and their kids would live the same way too. I wonder if they were happier than we seem to be.

Perhaps I read it differently (maybe incorrectly). I always interpret it as saying individuals' earnings have stagnated. Over centuries you wouldn't expect starting (first job) salaries to be relatively higher but people should earn more throughout their lives due to training and experience.

For the "just managing" it means 10 years closer to retirement with no savings and little pension contributions.

Worst of all, for nurses it means 10 years of increased pressure (and hours), more experience and being worse off.

I prefer your view because mine is bleaker.

 

[sb_73]

Perhaps I read it differently (maybe incorrectly). I always interpret it as saying individuals' earnings have stagnated. Over centuries you wouldn't expect starting (first job) salaries to be relatively higher but people should earn more throughout their lives due to training and experience.

For the "just managing" it means 10 years closer to retirement with no savings and little pension contributions.

Worst of all, for nurses it means 10 years of increased pressure (and hours), more experience and being worse off.

I prefer your view because mine is bleaker.

In the olden days you worked the land, watched the cathedral being built over several lifetimes and perhaps helped in this, starved in times of shortage, marked time by seasons and feast days, placed your trust in an all encompassing religion and hierarchy, and lived and died in one place. So it wasn't all beer and skittles. But the complete lack of expectation that anything would change, the absence of a need to 'do better' and 'be competitive' might have been good, plus the clear and total dependence and integration into a community, very little concept of individuality or privacy, and the angst these bring.

Then came the invention of credit, banks and limited companies giving some people the chance to get wealthier - the baker could open a second bakery, the pub landlord could add a few rooms, merchants could expand with less personal risk and the wage economy and the competitive spiral began.....

I'd last about 10 minutes in the olden days, but there is something quite comforting about the continuity and predictability of those times

Perhaps I'm just a Luddite at heart. Or perhaps I'm just mentally preparing for a short break in Somerset next week, where my Mums ancestors were all agricultural labourers if male, and in service or pieceworkers in the lace industry if female. Generation after generation of them.

 

[GoldhawkRoad]

So, you are willing to cede sovereignty to non UK bodies? How is that 'taking back control'? Or reducing 'bureaucracy'?

There is no logical answer to this. Complete break is the only way round it. Leave entirely, no trade deal.

If we were dealing with the US, and the US said "If there are any disputes, US law applies and US courts will adjudicate", the UK would say, "no, we want a court to be as independent as possible, issue by issue." An independent court of arbitration could be chosen. So too, with the EU going forward.

There is always compromise, particularly when the stakes are high for both sides. Patience is needed to reach it. Stop the toy-from-pram throwing, Stan, and try to look at things more positively...

 

[KooPeeArr]

In the olden days you worked the land, watched the cathedral being built over several lifetimes and perhaps helped in this, starved in times of shortage, marked time by seasons and feast days, placed your trust in an all encompassing religion and hierarchy, and lived and died in one place. So it wasn't all beer and skittles. But the complete lack of expectation that anything would change, the absence of a need to 'do better' and 'be competitive' might have been good, plus the clear and total dependence and integration into a community, very little concept of individuality or privacy, and the angst these bring.

Then came the invention of credit, banks and limited companies giving some people the chance to get wealthier - the baker could open a second bakery, the pub landlord could add a few rooms, merchants could expand with less personal risk and the competitive spiral began.....

I'd last about 10 minutes in the olden days, but there is something quite comforting about the continuity and predictability of those times

Perhaps I'm just a Luddite at heart.

I work with computers but am a luddite at heart, feeling that life in unnecessarily complex.

The olden days you describe definitely have a more socialist feel - work hard and, hopefully, have a fair, if unspectacular existence.

I don't think the notion of retirement was fully developed (perhaps just age related illness preventing work) so capitalism and medicine have created that rod for all our backs.

In modern living, stagnation amounts to a widening of the wealth divide - those that can save can do so for 10 years on the same wages and those that can't will just be 10 years behind. The mega rich won't comparatively suffer either.

 

[sb_73]

If we were dealing with the US, and the US said "If there are any disputes, US law applies and US courts will adjudicate", the UK would say, "no, we want a court to be as independent as possible, issue by issue." An independent court of arbitration could be chosen. So too, with the EU going forward.

There is always compromise, particularly when the stakes are high for both sides. Patience is needed to reach it. Stop the toy-from-pram throwing, Stan, and try to look at things more positively...

Remove the scales from your eyes Goldie. still waiting for reasons you have confidence in the competence of this government to deliver anything. At the moment it seems like you think we will rely on the good sense and goodwill of the EU to reach agreements.