Off Topic Politics Thread

[fatletiss]

This raises two critical points for me. The system you want to unravel - and I agree it should be - was set up, together with all the other "privatised" bollocks, on the altar of an ideology that the market knows best. The free market might be effective in selling widgets but it's crap when applied to a service like the NHS. But this leads to my second point. Anyone who works or has worked in public service sectors could tell you where the inefficiencies are. But lots of it worked well, so the changes became a baby with bathwater exercise.

The NHS is an astonishing achievement and one of which I am very proud. You have your "toe-curling" stories, mate, and I have no reason to question that. I have mine as a consequence of having two of my kids working in the NHS. I could make you shudder at stories of the French health service, even though they once ensured that I came out of hospital with all limbs intact after an horrendous accident. But it comes back to my two points. Governments set up education, health etc based on an ideology and never, but never, ask the people who make it work how it could be improved. Indeed those who work in it are seen as self-serving selfish bastards. It's a recipe for **** ups.

It sounds like you agree with my fundamental
point. If we nationalise anything, we need to do it properly. This is the point I have made all along. I've not said how we do it or who does it.

I've not said that some people are good or bad. I've not said the organisations are bad. I've said they are not run properly and so before any nationalisation happens, we should make sure we are going to do it right without bleeding money.

Let me flip the point. Does anyone want us to nationalise anything that ends up wasting money?

Again, please remember I'm not saying "don't nationalise," I'm saying prepare properly so something is nationalised properly.

 

[fatletiss]

. My analysis is a simplistic one, I admit. But looking at effective management styles might not be a bad place to start.

Absolutely Lambo. As I said above, let's do it right or at least prepare properly before we end up in a hole.

Who is the best person/people to do this?

 

[Missing Lambo]

Absolutely Lambo. As I said above, let's do it right or at least prepare properly before we end up in a hole.

Who is the best person/people to do this?

Me, but they can't afford me.

 

[San Tejón]

It sounds like you agree with my fundamental
point. If we nationalise anything, we need to do it properly. This is the point I have made all along. I've not said how we do it or who does it.

I've not said that some people are good or bad. I've not said the organisations are bad. I've said they are not run properly and so before any nationalisation happens, we should make sure we are going to do it right without bleeding money.

Let me flip the point. Does anyone want us to nationalise anything that ends up wasting money?

Again, please remember I'm not saying "don't nationalise," I'm saying prepare properly so something is nationalised properly.

"Does anyone want us to nationalise anything that ends up wasting money?"


I don't think anyone would want renationalisation of business if it didn't turn a profit for the country.
I see renationalisation as a necessity for the country, to input billions of pounds into the public purse.
At the moment the public are being, effectively, held to ransom by big business who dictate the price of pretty much everything, especially products that are key to living a decent life, as in utilities.
If foreign governments see our utilities as a means of making profit, whilst subsidising the same industries in their own countries, then it has to be a road down which a caring government must walk.
Lessons must be learnt from how privatisation has turned the industries into money making concerns, and renationalised companies should continue to make profits, if for no other reason as to improve and repair networks/services.
They must also pay ALL due taxes and not avoid them, as so often is the case now.

 

[Missing Lambo]

It sounds like you agree with my fundamental
point. If we nationalise anything, we need to do it properly. This is the point I have made all along. I've not said how we do it or who does it.

I've not said that some people are good or bad. I've not said the organisations are bad. I've said they are not run properly and so before any nationalisation happens, we should make sure we are going to do it right without bleeding money.

Let me flip the point. Does anyone want us to nationalise anything that ends up wasting money?

Again, please remember I'm not saying "don't nationalise," I'm saying prepare properly so something is nationalised properly.

I would nationalise anything that is meant to be a service for the common good power, transport systems, communications etc and leave the private sector to do what they do best - bloody make things to sell!

"Does anyone want us to nationalise anything that ends up wasting money?"


I don't think anyone would want renationalisation of business if it didn't turn a profit for the country.
I see renationalisation as a necessity for the country, to input billions of pounds into the public purse.
At the moment the public are being, effectively, held to ransom by big business who dictate the price of pretty much everything, especially products that are key to living a decent life, as in utilities.
If foreign governments see our utilities as a means of making profit, whilst subsidising the same industries in their own countries, then it has to be a road down which a caring government must walk.
Lessons must be learnt from how privatisation has turned the industries into money making concerns, and renationalised companies should continue to make profits, if for no other reason as to improve and repair networks/services.
They must also pay ALL due taxes and not avoid them, as so often is the case now.

In my mad Marxist days (ended weeks ago now, come on) I used to ascribe to the view that all property was theft and that therefore everything should be owned by the people.Being older if no wiser, I recognise the follies of that approach, not the least of which what the hell it means! I do think that utilities should be State owned. It's interesting that SNCF run railways in the UK, and EDF supply electricity. Try running trains or flogging electricity in France. The guillotine would be re-sharpened. So let's emulate France in this regard (they can keep peeing in the street and eating snails, thank you). I do agree, who couldn't, that State owned companies need to be efficiently managed and make a working profit so that they can invest in future technology.

I would be in favour of nationalising a company that was struggling if it clearly needed a helping hand, but had a promising future. Heath's ultra-left (?!) government nationalised Rolls Royce engines for just that reason.

 

[Beef]

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[TheSecondStain]

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I have heard that it is entirely possible that the UK wlll now NOT leave the EU, as it is too bloody difficult to do it without economically slitting our wrists. Which all experts in the field were saying weeks before the Brexit vote, and only about 4 people I personally know for sure who actually listened to them. The rest said don't believe the experts. Which is sort of like saying **** off to Darwinism. There was me, my sister, her husband. One brother of mine, and a best mate from years ago. I remember we all text each other after the result. I was frothing at the mouth. Pretty sure they were too. How is any British government going to explain to the people that they were deluded.? Shouldn't be too difficult, I'd imagine.

 

[greensaint]

I have heard that it is entirely possible that the UK wlll now NOT leave the EU, as it is too bloody difficult to do it without economically slitting our wrists. Which all experts in the field were saying weeks before the Brexit vote, and only about 4 people I personally know for sure who actually listened to them. The rest said don't believe the experts. Which is sort of like saying **** off to Darwinism. There was me, my sister, her husband. One brother of mine, and a best mate from years ago. I remember we all text each other after the result. I was frothing at the mouth. Pretty sure they were too. How is any British government going to explain to the people that they were deluded.? Shouldn't be too difficult, I'd imagine.

Never underestimate the British public's stupidity, pig headedness and ability to ignore facts.
Especially if accused of making a mistake.

 

[Missing Lambo]

Never underestimate the British public's stupidity, pig headedness and ability to ignore facts.
Especially if accused of making a mistake.

Harsh but fair. Actually saying you may have got it wrong is universally difficult, I suspect. Watched Question Time last night. Big mistake, my blood pressure is yet to recover. The belief that people did know that they were voting to come out of the single market etc is gathering pace. The venom last night aimed at the likes of the very rational Caroline Lucas was disturbing.

We need to be careful. Accusing those of voting "Leave" of not knowing what they were voting for is patronising. Nobody knew what they were voting for on either side, in general. I voted Remain (having voted for out in the 1975 referendum) based on an ideological perspective as much as any, with a bit of "this-could-go-tits-up" thrown on for good measure. Hardly surprising as the referendum was run in an information-free climate in the main. People I know who voted Leave did so as they are eurosceptic Daily Mail readers and trotted out all the lines. Visited one family member just before the referendum. We'd just been in France and had had conversations with people who worked in businesses large and small. Each of them made it clear that trading with the UK would become impossible/undesirable. Passed this on to family members who commented "Oh they say that, but it won't happen."

The belief that Europe needs us and will cut us a great deal is still around. So too is the view that the doom and gloom predictions haven't come to pass. Try telling Leave voters that's because we haven't left yet! I have learned to live with Tory victories - there's always the next election. But this referendum malarky has done my head in!

 

[San Tejón]

There are still some saying that they voted leave because of the £350m per week lie about extra money for the NHS.
I have asked, on Facebook, that when they voted for this expectation, did they realise that they were also voting for the potential loss of 72000 EU medical staff from the NHS, as a result of the loss of freedom of movement.
I have just stopped following someone, on Facebook, who I have known for many years, albeit not as a close friend. My reason for blocking her posts is because too many are "Give us back our country" type, that I associate with UKIP. It's been an eye opener.

 

[ImpSaint]

I have asked, on Facebook, that when they voted for this expectation, did they realise that they were also voting for the potential loss of 72000 EU medical staff from the NHS, as a result of the loss of freedom of movement.

So 72,000 EU medical staff are not skills we need then eh? This is often "trotted out" as you like to say when these are skills we need and thus would still be "imported" seeing as there is no intent from either Labour or Tories to train up our own people anymore.

 

[West Kent Saint]

So 72,000 EU medical staff are not skills we need then eh? This is often "trotted out" as you like to say when these are skills we need and thus would still be "imported" seeing as there is no intent from either Labour or Tories to train up our own people anymore.

Well they need to (either) if that is the case, as there will be a black hole in the NHS, and that will only go one way for the Tories (if still in power)

 

[Archers Road]

So 72,000 EU medical staff are not skills we need then eh? This is often "trotted out" as you like to say when these are skills we need and thus would still be "imported" seeing as there is no intent from either Labour or Tories to train up our own people anymore.

It's the Tories who ended the bursary payments for Student Nurses, not Labour. Labour have pledged to end University tuition fees, which would make it far easier for British people to get Nursing degrees.

Meanwhile, the NHS is currently facing a major skills shortage right now, nurses and other professionals are leaving in droves. This is a direct result of Tory cuts, backdoor privatisation, and the public sector pay freeze. It is getting harder and harder to recruit staff from Europe to fill the gaps, and this is a direct result of the Brexit vote.

 

[greensaint]

It's the Tories who ended the bursary payments for Student Nurses, not Labour. Labour have pledged to end University tuition fees, which would make it far easier for British people to get Nursing degrees.

Meanwhile, the NHS is currently facing a major skills shortage right now, nurses and other professionals are leaving in droves. This is a direct result of Tory cuts, backdoor privatisation, and the public sector pay freeze. It is getting harder and harder to recruit staff from Europe to fill the gaps, and this is a direct result of the Brexit vote.

I'm still calming down after some of the spin (lies) played re the paycap in the NHS over the last week. I really despair at the lack of challenge from BBC interviewers when *unt and Redwood especially talk crap.

But sadly the worst experience was listening to the public on phone ins showing they almost hate the idea that a Nurse after 35 odd years service be "given" a decent pension. A self employed person asked why they should get a good pension as no one was going to give him one. Well you numpty they've spent 3ys min getting a Nursing degree, paid in the NHS pension pot for 35+ yrs, paid more NI than you for 35+ yrs and had a sub norm pay rate for most of those 35+ years!

Public sector pensions are good, but not as really good as they once were. In another almost spiteful move the latest changes have for the first time pushed my wife into thinking of retiring. They make her working in the NHS beyond 55 seem silly as only marginal rewards and in some cases penalties will apply.

Newly qualified Nurses are looking at 40yrs of being undervalued (not just about pay/pensions) and deciding to jump ship. You can do more hours in a lesser paid but lesser stressed, no hassle job and have a better quality of life.

Her decision was pretty much sealed by Redwood moaning that Nurses could've had better pay increases if only their productivity improved! She, as an Independant Prescribing Nurse is currently saving her Trust the cost of a Doctor by doing part of the on call slot at our local Psychiatric Hospital at weekends, for as little as £22 a night. She also works full time Mon-Fri . Any more bloody productive and she'll need that bloody Time-Turner watch from Harry Potter.

As I rant this she texted to say (again) she'll be half hour late for our traditional Fri evening drinky as she has to finish some work stuff. Grrr.

 

[ChilcoSaint]

I'm still calming down after some of the spin (lies) played re the paycap in the NHS over the last week. I really despair at the lack of challenge from BBC interviewers when *unt and Redwood especially talk crap.

But sadly the worst experience was listening to the public on phone ins showing they almost hate the idea that a Nurse after 35 odd years service be "given" a decent pension. A self employed person asked why they should get a good pension as no one was going to give him one. Well you numpty they've spent 3ys min getting a Nursing degree, paid in the NHS pension pot for 35+ yrs, paid more NI than you for 35+ yrs and had a sub norm pay rate for most of those 35+ years!

Public sector pensions are good, but not as really good as they once were. In another almost spiteful move the latest changes have for the first time pushed my wife into thinking of retiring. They make her working in the NHS beyond 55 seem silly as only marginal rewards and in some cases penalties will apply.

Newly qualified Nurses are looking at 40yrs of being undervalued (not just about pay/pensions) and deciding to jump ship. You can do more hours in a lesser paid but lesser stressed, no hassle job and have a better quality of life.

Her decision was pretty much sealed by Redwood moaning that Nurses could've had better pay increases if only their productivity improved! She, as an Independant Prescribing Nurse is currently saving her Trust the cost of a Doctor by doing part of the on call slot at our local Psychiatric Hospital at weekends, for as little as £22 a night. She also works full time Mon-Fri . Any more bloody productive and she'll need that bloody Time-Turner watch from Harry Potter.

As I rant this she texted to say (again) she'll be half hour late for our traditional Fri evening drinky as she has to finish some work stuff. Grrr.

The employee contribution to the NHS pension is now 9% of salary. For most of my 38 years in the NHS it was 6%, then it rose to 8% for my last couple of years. That in itself was one reason why I retired at 60, while I still could. Nowadays, employees have to work (and maintain their fitness to work) until they are 67 in order to draw a full pension. So anyone worn down by, and unable to cope with, the always-increasing workload is unlikely to be able to draw a full pension anyway. If you were overweight and in a hospital bed needing a bed bath, would you want a 67 year old nurse or HCA lifting you?

And yes, unpaid overtime is part and parcel of being an NHS Professional. I used to average about 4 or 5 hours a week, every week, just to get the job done, and I was fairly typical among senior professional staff. This is the sort of thing that the Redwoods and *unts of this world never, ever mention.

 

[greensaint]

The employee contribution to the NHS pension is now 9% of salary. For most of my 38 years in the NHS it was 6%, then it rose to 8% for my last couple of years. That in itself was one reason why I retired at 60, while I still could. Nowadays, employees have to work (and maintain their fitness to work) until they are 67 in order to draw a full pension. So anyone worn down by, and unable to cope with, the always-increasing workload is unlikely to be able to draw a full pension anyway. If you were overweight and in a hospital bed needing a bed bath, would you want a 67 year old nurse or HCA lifting you?

And yes, unpaid overtime is part and parcel of being an NHS Professional. I used to average about 4 or 5 hours a week, every week, just to get the job done, and I was fairly typical among senior professional staff. This is the sort of thing that the Redwoods and *unts of this world never, ever mention.

I never used to resent this much, you had a real pride in what you did, you knew the system was under pressure and had a vast amount of loyalty to both colleagues and clients. I was one of the first promoted to Ward Manager back in 1989, replacing the old Charge Nurse role. I took the 24hr responsibility bit in my job description very (too) seriously. Politicians are throwing away this stuff, it can't be by mistake.

 

[TheSecondStain]

Have to say that this Thursday's This Week was dynamite. Ranging from democracy being the sole best answer, or not, to liberalism being high on a guilty feeling. It was a good 'un, and more importantly, a thought provoker: http://www.bbc.co.uk/iplayer/episode/b08xjg8b/this-week-06072017

 

[San Tejón]

So 72,000 EU medical staff are not skills we need then eh? This is often "trotted out" as you like to say when these are skills we need and thus would still be "imported" seeing as there is no intent from either Labour or Tories to train up our own people anymore.

Don't know what point you are trying to make here.
Maybe it's the shortness of your post that is confusing me.

 

[Puck]

Don't know what point you are trying to make here.
Maybe it's the shortness of your post that is confusing me.

I'm pretty sure his point is that once we leave the EU we can make our own immigration policy and if we are reliant on nurses (or doctors, builders or hairdressers) from abroad we can make it as easy for them to come here as we wish. Of course that doesn't help much if people stop coming here now because they feel uncertain but there's no real justification for that uncertainty, just as there's no real justification for not going to university because of student "debt".

It's interesting that SNCF run railways in the UK, and EDF supply electricity. Try running trains or flogging electricity in France. The guillotine would be re-sharpened. So let's emulate France in this regard (they can keep peeing in the street and eating snails, thank you). I do agree, who couldn't, that State owned companies need to be efficiently managed and make a working profit so that they can invest in future technology.

You have 4 years to prepare your bid to run the French railways - from 2021 SNCF will lose its monopoly. The EU's fourth railway package will make a nationalised railway system as it existed in the UK (i.e. one state-owned operator with a monopoly) illegal. It will still be possible for state-owned operators to run services but they'll have to compete for contracts with private companies and/or state operators from other countries. In fact it'll be somewhat similar to the current UK system!

 

[TheSecondStain]

I'm pretty sure his point is that once we leave the EU we can make our own immigration policy and if we are reliant on nurses (or doctors, builders or hairdressers) from abroad we can make it as easy for them to come here as we wish. Of course that doesn't help much if people stop coming here now because they feel uncertain but there's no real justification for that uncertainty, just as there's no real justification for not going to university because of student "debt".


You have 4 years to prepare your bid to run the French railways - from 2021 SNCF will lose its monopoly. The EU's fourth railway package will make a nationalised railway system as it existed in the UK (i.e. one state-owned operator with a monopoly) illegal. It will still be possible for state-owned operators to run services but they'll have to compete for contracts with private companies and/or state operators from other countries. In fact it'll be somewhat similar to the current UK system!

Please Puck. Don't defend the privatised UK rail system, even it means sticking your neck out Tory wise. I've seen the fares compared to the rest of Europe. It's a farce. If Michael "choo-choo" had to actually pay to travel he'd be the first one to see the discrepancy.