Many reasons are cited in the book, which you choose not to accept, it all links to definitions of concepts/words eg oppression as given by the texts but also as simple as unveiling the good from the bad Now let me ask you, do tests and suffering go away for atheists and if they don't why do kids get cancer?
I accept your book exists, and I am interested in quotes from it, but they are not proof in themselves, they need external validation. I'd only be an atheist in the same sense that you are, as you disbelieve in the existence of some gods. I disbelieve in the existence of the god described by Abrahimic religions, which Islam often gets categorised with, because I can see where some of the stories come from, and the mortal hand of man manipulating it for political gain and some of the logical fallacies in the definitions, such as an all caring god creating suffering. Suffering doesn't go away for atheists, it's just reality, and nothing to do with any test. Your reply doesn't really answer the question. I'll try it a different way. If you have unlimited power, unlimited compassion and a blank sheet, why would you create suffering?
Tbh I don't "disbelieve" in the existence of some Gods, more that it is the same God. For example the "pagans" of mecca also believed in the God as do the Hindus. If you read the older Hindu scriptures then the point to 1 God. You didn't really address my question. OK so it isn't a test for atheist but why then do kids get cancer or disasters happen? To answer yours, then again the Quran addresses this but you don't accept that and it would be pointless going into detail if you dismiss it. The Quran is where I get my belief from and so its my resource for any questions I have. Life in itself is not a contest or test as we all are born and die, living until 90 maybe more suffering than drowning at 5. How we live life and deal.with things and based on what is the test for the believer.
Kids get cancer, and disasters happen for all sorts of natural reasons. Atheism is immaterial to any of it. It's simply a lack of belief in god or gods. If you believe in the one God, that doesn't really fit with Hindu's for example, with Brahma, Vishnu and Shiva. Paganism isn't really a religion, it's a collective term for a variety of beliefs, "one god" is not a requirement, some believe in more, some less, and some don't care. I don't dismiss the koran, there are some interesting stories, but something being written in it, is only proof its written in it, it's not a credible reference source in itself, few books are. Proof of that are the hadiths, which themselves need further referencing. You still haven't answered the question. Why did your god create suffering, when he had a blank sheet to work with and unbounded power?
Most of this doesnt make sense and tbh shows your lack of knowledge For example Hindu scripture points to one supreme God. All the others are his creation. Credible sources are dependent on our stance. So for example I don't see Dawkins as credible or evolution in all its forms. Bug I am happy to discuss using those terms Even the word omnibenevolent is something thaybwasnt traditionally used by Islamic scholars, its origins are more in strawmen created by non believers. However its something that is here so we discuss it rather than ignore it. You see the quran as simply stories but I see it as much more and there are verses where Allah is explaining things for me. I am not sure your question can be answered ti your specific satisfaction as the perimeters you set are changeable and ultimately strawmen. Let me put it this way, If I believe God created us and put us on the earth as a test (simplistic on purpose) then the potential for evil not to exist would be unjust and oppressive. Similarly with suffering. Firstly we need to define suffering, as I said earlier is drowning in 5 minutes suffering or living until 90 with pains aches etc, add to that the concept of heaven and the drowning of a believer to be like martyrdom ie a straight pass to heaven, is this now a bad thing or a good thing? There is also the issue about test and other passages and explanations to explain suffering if we choose to believe. So God says here you go have a planet with everything in it for you but keep it nice. We respond by screwing it over and when the **** hits the fan do we learn? No we stockpile weaponry etc God has always said that if man exceeds certain limitations then he will be reminded/punished/destroyed etc (depending on which version you read). To then do the whole wars and other crap and say I can't believe in a Gid that allows this to happen or question how does your God allow this to happen is equivilant to doing a Hammond. Yes I mean Richard. Oh look I drove fast and nearly killed myself on a straight road now I will do that on a bendy one and see what happens. I was reading once that a tsunami was described as a "legend has it" type of thing but we have witnessed them in our lifetime. Do.we now say how can God allow that to happen when the "stories" in scripture already show us how when past generations exceeded the limitations they saw similar. When people asked why good people also were killed then it was said they were saved and the difference is where they will be in the hereafter
So by your own definition, your god is not an all caring god as he created suffering. Why didn't he create us in the way he wanted us to be? Why add a test, which by definition, many of his creations will fail? Do ants and bacteria have to pass the test?
I like how you ignore, by my standards, an essay and do a PNP. Did God create suffering or say these are the consequences of your actions and free will? I say the latter and to not have evil or suffering would be to not have free will Similarly why bother with a test if it was to be the way he wanted us to be? That's a really daft question tbh. And who says many will fail?
If he created everything from nothing and is all powerful, he created suffering. Why did he create a test, rather than the beings he wanted? Are we a toy, or part of some experiment? If nobody fails, what's the point of your religion?
That is a ridiculous line of thought and questioning. Fire is a good thing as it gives us warmth, fuel and many things but it also carries a warning that it burns. It's what we do with it that determines if we suffer or take advantage. I suppose it is an experiment yes. Not the word I would choose but OK I didn't say nobody fails. Right I have been good and answered everything you asked to the best of my ability. Your turn. Main question is how do you think we came to be? To clarify not just us humans but the whole thing. And if you could address the Hindu thing from before. One superior God right?
You haven't answered much at all, you've just got indignant. I addressed the hindu 'thing', as well as the pagan one. Do you believe in Zeus? We don't 100% know how we came to be. Science has some theories that seem credible. However it occurred, the koran is not the inspired words of a creator. It's a variation of paganism, adapted for political gain, as any open minded look into the background soon shows. Your analogy of fire doesn't make your point. Are you saying your all powerful, but not all caring god, created things knowing they would harm us? Why didn't he create a safer way for us to keep warm or eat, like he did with the other creatures? Ok, forget the fraction by definition, your god created some creatures with the expectation that they'd suffer for eternity. That is not a compassionate god by any standards, far from it. So, if not toy or experiment, what word and description would you choose for this imperfect creation?
Before I address any further issues raised I would like an explanation on how you believe I have "got indignant" and an explanation how the Koran is a variation of paganism adapted for political gain. i would specifically like this open minded background you speak of. No answer to that and no more engaging with you Now to stop this from going into the usual claims of ignoring or not answering questions yada yada yada I will address the points above. You haven't addressed anything just saying you addressed it isn't addressing it. Hindus believe in 1 supreme being and Zeus also is 1 Supreme being known as father of the gods. Do I believe I'm Zeus? I beleiev there is one supreme being. If the people in the past gave that 1 supreme creator Zeus then we share a belief. If they believe in Cronus being his dad then Cronus would be that supreme being. My analogy of fire is very apt. I'd you read the Qur'an it actually addresses your point tbh. It specifically talks about how and why things for man are different to his other creatures and there are multiple verses on the question do you think we created you as a toy. The answer is also there albeit I will give you that the English translation won't mean much to you without a tafsir. I would happily go through it with you but its not something I want to tyoe up in its entirety so google it and read up on it and I will address any questions you have, to the beat of my ability Now over to you, please address the questions, to the beat of your ability
The thought process is so far removed from reality it is unreal. I dont know why I get shocked when people come out and reveal their beliefs, I should be over it by now. I just dont think I will ever wrap my head around how people can equate what they see in every day life with the bullshit spewed from those novels. To each his own I guess.
Everyone is welcome to their own view but i am with dmd 1. How could a god create something so imperfect. 2. Presumably all humans should be tested but what about those who die young and innocently, live a life of suffering, have mental illnesses are born defective. Thats not a test on them. Whether you say thats the sins of other humans or their parents that new human has not been able to go through their own tests 3. What happens to all the non believers? They all go to hell then? As for where we came from where we came about? Im not saying the big bang seems plausible i just find my questions above to make god an implausible idea. Where we came about is interesting but isnt really something i care or dwell on.
I agree with this pretty much. I am not sure where we came from. What I am pretty sure about, is that it wasn't as the creation of a magical sky god. And if it was, I am unhappy with what he made, and he is a prick, and he can suck my ****ing balls. I wouldn't want to get in to his heaven on those terms. If heaven and hell do end up being real when I die, then Satan will have one hell of a soldier in me, with all the rage I hold at the worlds injustices. Right now i put it up to the randomness and cruelty of the world, but if I find out some prick is responsible, ooooh he is in for some **** when I get there.....
Yeah you kind of did when you said on a few occasions about having a discussion I don't recall this being a Q&A or me being your teacher or something I provided you with the source and will continue to politely address the questions after mine have been addressed
Every ****ing thread ends up as a boring debate about religion with one particularly boring **** always at the centre.
These issues have been addressed time and time again though, people just go on certain websites to create strawmen. As I mentioned to DMD earlier the Quran itself asks the question do you think we created you as a toy and it alsonaddresses the issue of suffering etc but jomone is bothered to look it up as it simply doesn't suit. The beat is when you provide that answer and they come with "those are not credible sources". Neither is Dawkins or Darwin for a believer but we engage. And yes the scriptures are clear the non believers go to hell. Now you dontbhave to accept that as I dont accept primordial soup but its there, it's been addressed and has many a works on it Basically this is the age old arguing about something without knowledge
