More #ToryElectionFraud on the way? Yesterday's little jaunt into the Scottish woods was apparently a child's party...
Naively I am going to assume that people on this forum look at real policies and make up their mind based on policies rather than propaganda and cartoons - I am slightly surprised by the lack of debate on here about actual policy. There seems to be a reliance on caricature and "knowing" how good /evil one party or the other is. Also most people seem to have the same views on here more or less so perhaps it is not easy to generate a real debate. Shame because the most interesting debates are when people propose / defend policies and records and all sides get a fair hearing.
Ed there is a lot of history here...... Sadly we have had some awful slanging matches and personalisation when we got into debate so i guess we are all treading carefully.... a number of people stopped posting or were asked to too. Happy to discuss policy. I became a Green Party member about 5 years ago after years of voting Labour/LibDem .... as for me politics had become so stereotypical and there are major environmental issues etc.. must be noted that coming out green here then caused me to be lightly stereotyped by some and lost me a good FB friend which was sad....
I would be very surprised if anyone on this forum had not already made up their mind, regardless of whether or not they agree/disagree with policies -and politicians themselves are to blame for that. On the one hand we currently have a government in power who trumpet their successes when they are not actually successes, backed up by an apparently unbiased media - and an opposition who speak out against that government, but, when it comes to the crunch, vote with that government or abstain. And I'm sure that anyone wishing to get a clear picture from both sides would expect to do so by tuning in to live Parliamentary debates or PMQs - unfortunately, that simply isn't the case. Lies are repeated ad nauseum in the apparent hope that they magically turn into truths. I think the only way to get any sense of what is really happening is to take note of what is actually happening around you, around your family, around your friends, around the area you live & the businesses within, around the cost of living - and think about what has happened to cause it to happen, then give credit or apportion blame and act accordingly.
'SNP bubble has BURST' Ridge SAVAGES Sturgeon's 'shocking record' in power SOPHY Ridge grilled the SNP's Europe spokesman on the party's dismal feats in power ami... The SNP bubble seems to have burst.
- I was not expecting anybody would change their mind in cyber-debate. It is rare enough in pub discussions. What I was commenting on was that I thought the election debate on here might bring out a range of things people did or did not want; whether they thought brexit was / was not the only issue this time; whether the election should / should not have been called; whether FPTP would give a fair / skewed result etc etc. Instead it reminds me of the old joke where monks in a monastery told jokes by numbers because they knew them all by heart. With perhaps one exception everyone on here seems to agree with each other and just posts the same comment and same cartoons that they all agree with. Nothing wrong with that of course but it is more like a club - or perhaps old peoples home where there is nothing new and the same old stuff is agreed with by all. Not exactly stimulating. Some forums have people with very different views - they will never persuade each other but it is interesting to observe the points they make. Here it is just "here, here". Perhaps Yorkshirehornet put his finger on it by saying some who thought differently no longer post here. Who knows? As I say not a problem but amazes me we have got to 245 posts without any real debate. Or is it just me?
There is not proper debate because there is an ingrained accepted bullying culture where any posts supporting right of centre and Brexiters are fair game for abuse. Several posters have tried to put an alternative view but have been subject to such aggression that they have stopped posting.
Coming from someone who has managed to insult, or belittle, around 10 different posters at some time this is a bit rich.
I keep hearing that Jeremy Corbyn is unelectable (as if it were an understood fact) - yet rarely an explanation of why. I would like someone to actually explain (in terms of policy, not personality) why they believe this to be the case. For me he is not left wing enough, undecided on Brexit, but, other than that, ok. Except that I would go a lot further and not only scrap Trident, but also withdraw from NATO - this is simply a mask to preserve the American dominated status quo in the World - an instrument to further their interests. Always we fall for the same old lies - they station troops and missiles on Russia's doorstep, and when Russia does something then they are the aggressor and not NATO. I say 'out now'. I also have doubts about Corbyn because he is not a member of 'Republican Britain' - ie. he is prepared to tolerate Elizabeth Winsor (and all her offspring) whereas I am not - where is Cromwell when you need him ?
Nurses having to go to food banks? FFS! And May defending that? Are you kidding me? Something is seriously wrong with our society as created by the current government. Unacceptable. Defending the indefensible.
Fake news....... You have been one of the main perpetrators of biased posting and the abuse of those who dont share your unflinching Tory party line
Just who on here is totally happy with the state of the country today? SH might be because of his blind faith in the Tory party, but I doubt that anyone else can feel easy about the way that the weakest in society are being treated. Many years ago I could go along with the Tories when they were a one nation party, but now despite what is said, little is done to suggest that they are still in touch with the old, disabled, and those who do not have the skills to get a decent well paying job. A decent government should be there to serve all, not any one type. But in the same way I do not go along with the class warfare approach that I see too often, and for me is just as big a turn off as the PM trying to justify things that really should not be a part of our modern society. To see a large union having too much say in the running of a political party is no better for democracy than watching the press barons exerting their views on the public. Similar views have been expressed over here, and in the first round of voting for the new President both of the two main old party candidates have been firmly rejected. Change is wanted, and things will most likely happen here next Sunday to bring something different, but will the old and discredited two party system in England and Wales get past looking for a solution outside of Tory v Labour?
I do not have blind faith in the Tory but they are the only political party in the UK at the moment fit to govern. This also appears to be the views of the majority of the electorate. The traditional political parties in France have not been rejected for their political positioning. The socialists had the misfortune of previously electing the hapless Hollande who promised much but managed to alienate both left and right. The centre right would have won handsomely with Fillon had he not been caught up in the fictitious job scandal. The two party system is as strong as ever in the UK, When the Labour Party succeed in snatching back control from the extreme left they will become a force again. There is no sign whatsoever in the UK of a challenge to the status quo. Even the mid sized Lib Dems were almost wiped out last time, they will win back a few of their previous seats but will remain relatively irrelevant in UK politics.
In addition, with the demise of UKIP it will strengthen the Tories. They are also set to take seats from the SNP so they are clearly moving in the opposite direction to your prediction.
Unfortunately I do not see any signs of the 2 party system disappearing in the UK. It would need a PR. system for that to happen. In terms of their share of the vote the combined Tory/Labour vote has been dropping consistently over the years - meaning that about 30-35% of the electorate are now voting for other parties but it does not translate into seats and so is, effectively , disenfranchised. Unfortunately the voting system in the UK. ensures that the majority of the people are always against the government of the day - which, over a number of years, alienates people from politics.
I know some of you guys were very upset that UKIP managed to obtain 4 million votes for only 1 MP but the UK system is rigged to prevent any challenge to the two party norm. I very much doubt either of these two parties will volunteer to change the system. There is also very little interest from the electorate to change either so the two parties will dominate well into the future unless the LP implodes.
I made no prediction, but was questioning why the UK population cannot see beyond the two party system. Are you happy SH to see the effects on some people of the current policies? You seem to be not questioning if they are fair to the disadvantaged, but justify these rules by saying that the Tories are the best of a bad job lot. I have stated that when I felt a party governed for the benefit of the majority then I could support them, but it doesn't seem that way any longer. The two main parties were firmly rejected by the French population. There was a great deal of in fighting before the election, similar to the right wing of the Tories and the left wing of the Labour party taking over. Eventually my prediction is that this will bring down both, and something of a more social democrat party, call it what you will, will come to the fore, maybe not quickly, but when the country is facing a real crisis that could be brought about by many events.
It is easy to justify electing the Tories because they have sensible fiscal policies. Opponents have to create a vision of social problems because the only possible alternative is in such disarray. You can only help the disadvantaged by maintaining the confidence in the UK government. Labour's un-costed spending spree would seriously damage the UK's reputation for prudence, leading to lower credit rating and much higher borrowing cost. Good intentions are useless without competence. I agree the French socialists are squabbling like their UK comrades but the UMP would have walked it had Fillon was not added to the long list of cheating French politicians.
Remember SH. that the Tories have spent more for each year they have been in government since the war, than Labour have. Labour has also paid back more outstanding loans per year in government than the Tories have - that is fact. The facts suggest strongly that it is the Tories which are the spendthrift party.
