Off Topic Politics Thread

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I Sorry I Ruined The Party said:
No, this was deliberate. I don't think Trump himself ordered it, but some of Trump's inner circle (eg. Bannon and Miller) are truly scary people. They absolutely knew what would happen, they wanted this, and they kept people out of the loop or did the end-arounds to avoid people stopping them.
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There is a good rule of thumb in politics that you shouldn't assume a conspiracy when incompetence explains the situation just as well. I don't believe Trump or anyone around him intended to issue an order so unclear that they'd have to spend the next 48 hours explaining what it actually meant (and it still isn't totally clear). Green Card holders were detained at airports, we're now told they're not barred from entering the country. UK and Canadian citizens with dual nationality were apparently affected but we've been told they shouldn't be etc etc.

His latest order regarding regulation is just as bad. Here's a Harvard law professor's opinion: http://environment.law.harvard.edu/2017/01/freemanstatement/ The key part for me is this excerpt: "The Order’s breadth is striking. It does not define “agency,” and so appears to include independent regulatory agencies, which have never been subject to centralized regulatory review before, and which can be expected to resist White House control. (The Press has reported that the president said, just before signing it, that the Order was not meant to cover agencies like the Securities and Exchange Commission, but that is not reflected in the Order itself)."

So, in short, Trump and his advisers don't understand how to write these sorts of instructions so they have the effect they want them to have.
 
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The acting AG has now been dismissed, with a White House statement that she "betrayed" the Department of Justice. The acting director of Immigration and Customs Enforcement has been replaced. It's all popping off.
 
Whiteley Saint said:
I saw some of the questions to Boris this afternoon in the House of Commons. He confirmed that the seven countries involved where already picked out by Obama as needing special attention so as you said not chosen by Trump. There is a lot of misinformation out there at the moment which makes it difficult to know what the truth actually is. I'm not saying I agree with what Trump has done by the way.
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It's obvious to any observer exactly what he is, and exactly what sort of thugs and bully boys he has surrounded himself with.

It was obvious in 1933 what the new German leader was, but for many reasons many people chose not to see it. Including the then British PM.

Time for the world to wake up.
 
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Time to face it. There is a narcissistic psychopath sitting in the White House. We are all endangered. There just may be a chance that the chaos coming to USA will bring him down. Showing solidarity with those who oppose him will be important. I agree the rise of facism in the 1930s is being replicated.
 
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The following is the one that bothers me. US State Department has a "dissent channel", a way for diplomats to put forward a view about policies that they feel will lead to problems. So they've used it. And Trump's response? His press officer, Sean Spicer said "they should either get with the programme or they can go."

So, when people who have spent their life working in the area suggest it's a poorly thought-out policy, they should keep quite and leave.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-us-canada-38778261

Add in sacking the acting attorney general for deciding that "At present, I am not convinced that the defense of the Executive Order is consistent with these responsibilities nor am I convinced that the Executive Order is lawful.".

I'm genuinely worried about what's happening in the US. I'm not easily spooked but last summer I read a biography of Hitler and I see parallels. I know that invocation of Hitler is shorthand for "the person writing this is a deranged lunatic" but this is exactly how AH worked. I'm sincerely hoping that the many checks and balances in the US constitution will stop Trump and I'm reasonably confident they will but this is getting beyond something to chuckle at.

Vin
 
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Onionman said:
The following is the one that bothers me. US State Department has a "dissent channel", a way for diplomats to put forward a view about policies that they feel will lead to problems. So they've used it. And Trump's response? His press officer, Sean Spicer said "they should either get with the programme or they can go."

So, when people who have spent their life working in the area suggest it's a poorly thought-out policy, they should keep quite and leave.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-us-canada-38778261

Add in sacking the acting attorney general for deciding that "At present, I am not convinced that the defense of the Executive Order is consistent with these responsibilities nor am I convinced that the Executive Order is lawful.".

I'm genuinely worried about what's happening in the US. I'm not easily spooked but last summer I read a biography of Hitler and I see parallels. I know that invocation of Hitler is shorthand for "the person writing this is a deranged lunatic" but this is exactly how AH worked. I'm sincerely hoping that the many checks and balances in the US constitution will stop Trump and I'm reasonably confident they will but this is getting beyond something to chuckle at.

Vin
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Yep, for the first time in my life (26), I'm genuinely fearful. Nazi Germany has always been a fascination of mine, and the parallels are scary.

This is from a holocaust museum:

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Onionman said:
I'm genuinely worried about what's happening in the US. I'm not easily spooked but last summer I read a biography of Hitler and I see parallels. I know that invocation of Hitler is shorthand for "the person writing this is a deranged lunatic" but this is exactly how AH worked. I'm sincerely hoping that the many checks and balances in the US constitution will stop Trump and I'm reasonably confident they will but this is getting beyond something to chuckle at.

Vin
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Most of the checks and balances work by consent. The executive and legislature follow judicial orders because the executive and legislature follow judicial orders. If they don't, most of the checks fall apart; Trump already feinted in that direction concerning his ban, and if he gets thumped on a big decision in the upper courts, it's not out of the question.

From there, it's solely at the discretion of the Republican Party. The only two means to remove Trump are i) via impeachment, or via Section 4 of the 25th Amendment, whereby the Vice President and the cabinet can vote to declare him unable to discharge his duties. Both are very high bars to clear in the current atmosphere; impeachment would mean civil war within the party, whereas declaring him unfit is untested (opinions vary whether being merely a narcissistic megalomaniac is sufficient, or he'd need to be incapacitated) and would have the feeling of a palace coup, and many of those selected for Trump's cabinet are likeminded. Trump can also basically declare himself fit, at which point the bar to remove him is a full two-thirds of both Houses...an incredibly difficult one to reach.

If neither of those happen, it's entirely unknown what happens if the President decides to just do whatever he damned well pleases, beyond ushering in a constitutional crisis. The courts can hold him in contempt, but who enforces it?
 
Schad said:
Most of the checks and balances work by consent. The executive and legislature follow judicial orders because the executive and legislature follow judicial orders. If they don't, most of the checks fall apart; Trump already feinted in that direction concerning his ban, and if he gets thumped on a big decision in the upper courts, it's not out of the question.

From there, it's solely at the discretion of the Republican Party. The only two means to remove Trump are i) via impeachment, or via Section 4 of the 25th Amendment, whereby the Vice President and the cabinet can vote to declare him unable to discharge his duties. Both are very high bars to clear in the current atmosphere; impeachment would mean civil war within the party, whereas declaring him unfit is untested (opinions vary whether being merely a narcissistic megalomaniac is sufficient, or he'd need to be incapacitated) and would have the feeling of a palace coup, and many of those selected for Trump's cabinet are likeminded. Trump can also basically declare himself fit, at which point the bar to remove him is a full two-thirds of both Houses...an incredibly difficult one to reach.

If neither of those happen, it's entirely unknown what happens if the President decides to just do whatever he damned well pleases, beyond ushering in a constitutional crisis. The courts can hold him in contempt, but who enforces it?
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“The only thing necessary for the triumph of evil is for good men to do nothing.” ― Edmund Burke

Our grandfathers who fought for freedom in WW2 will be turning in their graves.
 
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Archers Road said:
It's obvious to any observer exactly what he is, and exactly what sort of thugs and bully boys he has surrounded himself with.

It was obvious in 1933 what the new German leader was, but for many reasons many people chose not to see it. Including the then British PM.

Time for the world to wake up.
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I agree he is a terrible leader. He is going to try to lead the same way he does in business but it's unlikely that his bullying tactics will have the same effect. I'm hoping the Senate and House of Representatives will be able to keep him in check enough to stop too much damage being done.

EDIT: Just read the other comments on this thread which suggest I may be expecting too much!
 
Whiteley Saint said:
I agree he is a terrible leader. He is going to try to lead the same way he does in business but it's unlikely that his bullying tactics will have the same effect. I'm hoping the Senate and House of Representatives will be able to keep him in check enough to stop too much damage being done.

EDIT: Just read the other comments on this thread which suggest I may be expecting too much!
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Republicans are in full control of both houses. Tragically, that's what hamstrung Obama in many instances of passing policy. On the plus side, many Republicans disassociate themselves from Trump for essentially being too right-wing.
 
TheSecondStain said:
Republicans are in full control of both houses. Tragically, that's what hamstrung Obama in many instances of passing policy. On the plus side, many Republicans disassociate themselves from Trump for essentially being too right-wing.
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Yes amazingly he is more crazy than they are, so they may not go along with everything he wants. :emoticon-0107-sweat
 
Onionman said:
The following is the one that bothers me. US State Department has a "dissent channel", a way for diplomats to put forward a view about policies that they feel will lead to problems. So they've used it. And Trump's response? His press officer, Sean Spicer said "they should either get with the programme or they can go."

So, when people who have spent their life working in the area suggest it's a poorly thought-out policy, they should keep quite and leave.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-us-canada-38778261

Add in sacking the acting attorney general for deciding that "At present, I am not convinced that the defense of the Executive Order is consistent with these responsibilities nor am I convinced that the Executive Order is lawful.".

I'm genuinely worried about what's happening in the US. I'm not easily spooked but last summer I read a biography of Hitler and I see parallels. I know that invocation of Hitler is shorthand for "the person writing this is a deranged lunatic" but this is exactly how AH worked. I'm sincerely hoping that the many checks and balances in the US constitution will stop Trump and I'm reasonably confident they will but this is getting beyond something to chuckle at.

Vin
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To be fair, she was fired for ordering her Department not to act in defence of the ban - her action deemed as anti-constitutional. It wasn't for expressing an opposing point of view.

As for historical parallels, over the years I have read quite a few books on the late Roman Republic and the similarity with our society is equally scary. In brief, the rise of "populares" demagogue politicians such as Caesar, whilst being a symptom of the death of the republic, were not its sole cause. He got his support from the urban poor, many of whom had found it uneconomic to continue working in the countryside because of imported labour (slaves). They lived a life on the dole, being diverted by ever more outrageous public entertainment. Caesar was seen as a bad thing because he had the support of the many, rather than the "best" people,or "optimates" (career politicians) who, being more educated, obviously knew more about how to ru(i)n the country. They were out to get him when his pro-consulship (and immunity) ended.
Note how the plebeian masses, once a symbol of the power-limiting virtue of the republican system, were now sidelined as uneducated and worthless voters by the optimates. I expect they represented lower income brackets and were less likely to have a higher qualification, and should really have been ignored....except for this damned voting thing.
 
Like Vin, I am for the first time in my lifetime a little concerned the way this is going to pan out.

What gets me is that although we see demos in the US, a lot of Americans are not concerned. My daughter is married to a republican through and through, and all they seem to say is 'it will be ok, the party will rein him in'. I'm not so sure. I'm going over to Atlanta next month to stay with them...a lot of lip biting i think from my part.
 
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