another one

[The Norton Cat]

Like it or not, diving is part of the game now. There is no solution to it other than for referees to adapt to it and get better at spotting it which is, obviously, easier said than done. For part of the 19th century PASSING THE BALL was considered to be unsporting and unfair but we've all got used to that now. The only way to deal with diving is to accept it as part of the game, provide clear points of reference for referees, and realise that some referees will be stricter on it than others. As pointed out previously, its too much of a grey area and too subjective for retrospective punishments to work properly.

 

[Tel (they/them)]

Like it or not, diving is part of the game now. There is no solution to it other than for referees to adapt to it and get better at spotting it which is, obviously, easier said than done. For part of the 19th century PASSING THE BALL was considered to be unsporting and unfair but we've all got used to that now. The only way to deal with diving is to accept it as part of the game, provide clear points of reference for referees, and realise that some referees will be stricter on it than others. As pointed out previously, its too much of a grey area and too subjective for retrospective punishments to work properly.

Daniel Sturridge didn't get the memo.

 

[polyphemus]

Like it or not, diving is part of the game now. There is no solution to it other than for referees to adapt to it and get better at spotting it which is, obviously, easier said than done. For part of the 19th century PASSING THE BALL was considered to be unsporting and unfair but we've all got used to that now. The only way to deal with diving is to accept it as part of the game, provide clear points of reference for referees, and realise that some referees will be stricter on it than others. As pointed out previously, its too much of a grey area and too subjective for retrospective punishments to work properly.

Some people, including footballers have a better sense of balance, that others.
It often goes with a lower centre of gravity.
If he is squat and heavy(ish) he would be harder to knock down that someone tall and thin.

So someone with a 'slight' build is more likely to go to ground but that's not ALWAYS to say that he's a diver.
Should someone be punished because he has a poor sense of balance ?
The Maradona types can keep on their feet more easily, but in his case he found a different way to cheat.

I only mention this in support of the view that's it's not as easy as it seems.
(Ashley Young has been mentioned. His sense of balance looks to be so bad I doubt if he can ride a bike)

 

[The Norton Cat]

Some people, including footballers have a better sense of balance, that others.
It often goes with a lower centre of gravity.
If he is squat and heavy(ish) he would be harder to knock down that someone tall and thin.

So someone with a 'slight' build is more likely to go to ground but that's not ALWAYS to say that he's a diver.
Should someone be punished because he has a poor sense of balance ?
The Maradona types can keep on their feet more easily, but in his case he found a different way to cheat.

I only mention this in support of the view that's it's not as easy as it seems.
(Ashley Young has been mentioned. His sense of balance looks to be so bad I doubt if he can ride a bike)

Exactly! Referees should be looking for the foul and the intent rather than the subsequent reaction of the player. Although, of course, if the player stays on his feet and retains the ball then the ref should play the advantage.
Maradona is a good example in more ways than one. In some countries, Argentina being one, deceiving referees is already considered to be part of the game and part of the skillset of any player. So with the global movement of players the inclination to dive is always going to be there and with a global body making decisions on the rules the desire to stamp diving out completely is unlikely to be there.

 

[Nostalgic]

Back in the '70s I watched a match from the terraces at Cologne between them and Arsenal in the European Cup and witnessed two instances of diving within fifteen yards that led to two sendings off of Arsenal defenders. In one case the local player ran into an outstretched leg that had sent the ball out of play and flung himself over it with minimal contact. The next ran into a stationary Arsenal but hit the deck like he had been shot. They weren't the only ones that game but slowly, slowly that part of the game has crept into ours, possibly just to correct the balance.

The British take at the time was more or less if you don't want to be hit then get out of the way of the tackle, but if you can't beat it join it.

 

[Nacho]

If the only solution to eradicating diving is for referees to get better then it's here to stay and will only get worse. There would have to be at least one extra ref on the pitch for any improvement in that regard.

I support retrospective punishment by panels of analysts, most of the time it's blatantly obvious when a player is diving to cheat or to avoid injury but in the event the panel isn't sure then no action should be taken.

No way do I accept that cheating is an acceptable part of modern football.

 

[password invalid]

Its not part of the game though is it,its happening in the game that much is true however ,its seeking to gain an unfair advantage using unsporting behavior ,the rules remain the same,its cheating no more no less,did the likes of Best,and Law fall over and roll about ,no amount of the garbage spouted on here can justify cheating ,players are nowadays much fitter,quicker,skillful,but much less honest ,anybody who has been hurt does not roll about its just laughable , whatever or however you try to put a spin on it the rules clearly states the fact its CHEATING .
Snodgrass could have struck a much needed cord if he did not dive in the first place because he didnt want to take the tackle also if he did a sporting thing with the spot kick if he felt that bad ,he didnt did he, you all know it and so does he,people pay good money to see football being played not grown men falling over when brushed against.
RULE CHANGE, ...........................IF GUILTY TRYING TO GET A SPOT KICK THROUGH CHEATING............................AWARD IT AT THE OTHER END . that will end it.

 

[The Norton Cat]

Its not part of the game though is it,its happening in the game that much is true however ,its seeking to gain an unfair advantage using unsporting behavior ,the rules remain the same,its cheating no more no less,did the likes of Best,and Law fall over and roll about ,no amount of the garbage spouted on here can justify cheating ,players are nowadays much fitter,quicker,skillful,but much less honest ,anybody who has been hurt does not roll about its just laughable , whatever or however you try to put a spin on it the rules clearly states the fact its CHEATING .
Snodgrass could have struck a much needed cord if he did not dive in the first place because he didnt want to take the tackle also if he did a sporting thing with the spot kick if he felt that bad ,he didnt did he, you all know it and so does he,people pay good money to see football being played not grown men falling over when brushed against.
RULE CHANGE, ...........................IF GUILTY TRYING TO GET A SPOT KICK THROUGH CHEATING............................AWARD IT AT THE OTHER END . that will end it.

It doesn't matter what the rules say. Although 'simulation' is banned according to the rulebook in many parts of the world it is accepted as part of the game. Trying to fool the referee is part of the game in these places; if they get away with it they've done well, if they don't they accept the consequences. As football has become globalised, such attitudes have spread and entered into the English game. I'm not saying its right, I'm just saying that it is here, those are the reasons its here, and there is no way to successfully eradicate it. Shouting about it isn't going to change that.

 

[The Norton Cat]

If the only solution to eradicating diving is for referees to get better then it's here to stay and will only get worse. There would have to be at least one extra ref on the pitch for any improvement in that regard.

I support retrospective punishment by panels of analysts, most of the time it's blatantly obvious when a player is diving to cheat or to avoid injury but in the event the panel isn't sure then no action should be taken.

No way do I accept that cheating is an acceptable part of modern football.

I think your solution is the closest we'll get to perfect to be honest Nacho. The problem is, while most people in this country consider diving to be cheating, people in other countries just don't see it quite the same way.

 

[Tel (they/them)]

Its not part of the game though is it,its happening in the game that much is true however ,its seeking to gain an unfair advantage using unsporting behavior ,the rules remain the same,its cheating no more no less,did the likes of Best,and Law fall over and roll about ,no amount of the garbage spouted on here can justify cheating ,players are nowadays much fitter,quicker,skillful,but much less honest ,anybody who has been hurt does not roll about its just laughable , whatever or however you try to put a spin on it the rules clearly states the fact its CHEATING .
Snodgrass could have struck a much needed cord if he did not dive in the first place because he didnt want to take the tackle also if he did a sporting thing with the spot kick if he felt that bad ,he didnt did he, you all know it and so does he,people pay good money to see football being played not grown men falling over when brushed against.
RULE CHANGE, ...........................IF GUILTY TRYING TO GET A SPOT KICK THROUGH CHEATING............................AWARD IT AT THE OTHER END . that will end it.

It's a reasoned debate stooey, when you call it 'garbage' you alienate yourself from the debate and make yourself look like a complete, narrow minded fool.

What Stu says goes everybody, let's all sit in a circle and listen to him waffle on about the great days of no diving (they dived) and men were men, as we are hearing every day in the news.

 

[The Norton Cat]

Its not part of the game though is it,its happening in the game that much is true however ,its seeking to gain an unfair advantage using unsporting behavior ,the rules remain the same,its cheating no more no less,did the likes of Best,and Law fall over and roll about ,no amount of the garbage spouted on here can justify cheating ,players are nowadays much fitter,quicker,skillful,but much less honest ,anybody who has been hurt does not roll about its just laughable , whatever or however you try to put a spin on it the rules clearly states the fact its CHEATING .
Snodgrass could have struck a much needed cord if he did not dive in the first place because he didnt want to take the tackle also if he did a sporting thing with the spot kick if he felt that bad ,he didnt did he, you all know it and so does he,people pay good money to see football being played not grown men falling over when brushed against.
RULE CHANGE, ...........................IF GUILTY TRYING TO GET A SPOT KICK THROUGH CHEATING............................AWARD IT AT THE OTHER END . that will end it.

I suggest you read pages 232 to 238 of John Foot's Calcio: A History of Italian Football. This explains the concept of furbo or 'craftiness' which is an inherent part of Italian football

 

[Deleted #]

I suggest you read pages 232 to 238 of John Foot's Calcio: A History of Italian Football. This explains the concept of furbo or 'craftiness' which is an inherent part of Italian football

You must have that book memorised?

 

[The Norton Cat]

You must have that book memorised?

Just spent 10 minutes looking it up!

 

[Deleted #]

Just spent 10 minutes looking it up!

Haha

 

[The Norton Cat]

Haha

The worrying thing is, I knew which chapter it was in.

 

[Tel (they/them)]

Stu probably read it before it was written mate.

 

[password invalid]

Stu probably read it before it was written mate.

It's a reasoned debate stooey, when you call it 'garbage' you alienate yourself from the debate and make yourself look like a complete, narrow minded fool.

What Stu says goes everybody, let's all sit in a circle and listen to him waffle on about the great days of no diving (they dived) and men were men, as we are hearing every day in the news.

you know its nothing to do with being a mans man ,do you cheat ? to win if so whats the point , says a lot about peoples character if one resorts to cheating and those who accept it ,who do you remember from man utd who dived in the 70s,80s ,sorry santa you are a fool, its 100% cheating and you endorse it ,well done you.

 

[The Norton Cat]

you know its nothing to do with being a mans man ,do you cheat ? to win if so whats the point , says a lot about peoples character if one resorts to cheating and those who accept it ,who do you remember from man utd who dived in the 70s,80s ,sorry santa you are a fool, its 100% cheating and you endorse it ,well done you.

But in some cultures its not considered cheating. Or at least, they see nothing morally wrong with this particular form of cheating. Football is a global and globalised game now and, in football terms, cultures have merged. You might not like diving but it happens and no one is going to be able to make it go away completely.

 

[Nacho]

But in some cultures its not considered cheating. Or at least, they see nothing morally wrong with this particular form of cheating. Football is a global and globalised game now and, in football terms, cultures have merged. You might not like diving but it happens and no one is going to be able to make it go away completely.

I don't really agree, it's like saying that for (a hypothetical) example the Spanish are lenient with handballs that we should let Spaniards in the prem get away with handballing it. Something should be done about it before it gets out of hand, so to speak.

I can't think of any foreign matches I've watched that wouldn't have been improved by much stricter clamping down on cheating. El Classico is ****, two great sides trying to see who can cheat the best. Load of ****.

When it comes to the Champions League they seem to be more aligned with the English stance on disciplining diving etc, because they know the world is watching and it's the right way. We should lead by example in England and take a hard line on cheating and hope that the rest of the world follows.

If not **** 'em, they're doing football wrong.

 

[The Norton Cat]

I agree that it doesn't improve the game and I'm not saying its right. In at least some of the countries where that attitude towards it exists, there have been attempts to stamp it out, as I understand it. Its not like its officially condoned by the footballing authorities but it seems to be considered that its worth the risk of being punished due to the benefits you get from it. Even the best referees will be taken in sometimes and retrospective punishments are unlikely to extend as far as changing the results of matches because of the anarchy that could lead to. So, as long as there is the slightest chance of gaining an advantage there will always be some players willing to risk the punishments.