Wenger: forget about the table

No real idea what you two are arguing about but I would say that replying "wow" all the time has no real impact apart from suggesting you don't know how to reply properly.

 

I made so many relevant points, so nothing wow about it.

 

This is why some of us think Arsenal fans are delusional. You are not and have never been an elite club like Barcelona and Bayern. You can't compete with them in signing players or anything else. Your star men were rejects of clubs like that. The only way you can aspire to such a status is by a gradual improvement or developing your own youngsters. But instead of that you want to make a huge bet and risk the stability you have. There are two clubs in England that really are in the elite group and two more that have bottomless pits of money. Two of those are way outside the CL places this year. If that happens to you then you might never recover. Look at Leeds and Everton.

 

I don't think we are elite at the moment, but it's the other fans I am addressing who do. We could be elite, if we used our resources better instead of being so frugal and conservative as Wenger has. So when you tell me I'm wrong for thinking we're elite etc, don't say it to me, but to them, ****s sakes, that's what I am telling them! They think we're a top top club like the others, which is silly when we celebrate making top 4, these Wengerites want to have their cake and eat it.

And yes, I am more than willing to move on from Wenger and this 'stability' nonsense, I am not afraid of change and so tired of this lame stale argument of be careful of what you wish for bla bla bla, Wenger will have to leave eventually, people talk like he is here forever, so it's an inevitably either way, whether people are for him, or against him. We had very good opportunities in the last 2 years to replace him with other top class managers and didn't move, and there are yet other good managers available on the market.

Wenger out.

 

I took this from Webster's for you. No need to thank me

Comprehension - knowledge gained by comprehending.

Wriggle all you like, but you and your fellow anti Arsenal group were shown up for what you are. A very insignificant, albeit mildly irritating minority.

 

Good thread. Would read again.

 

I think what we want and where the likes of Real, Barca and Munich are miles apart. So it would be delusional for fans to demand we win/compete for the league, cups and ECL every year. So please do not conflate our requirements with that of these so called elite teams, (most fans are fed up with the stagnation year in year out). I have said it before and I would say it again. The amount of money we pay to watch our team play, we have every right to demand more than the plyers we currently have.
No team would be happy with a top 4 finish for the past 12years, it is normal to want more.

 

"Wow" because you have presumed an awful lot about my position on things, have assumed that I am diametrically opposed to you and have therefore lumped me into a group of neolithic anti-change spawn of the devil whose great crime is to disagree with you. For the record, I think that the inevitability of Wenger moving on is upon us and we should be changing as well as building upon his legacy, which, incidentally, has brought us closer to being an 'elite' club than we could have imagined 20 years ago. I don't believe that he should be offered a new contract but I don't believe that he should be unceremoniously booted out or upstairs either. Whatever some of you may think, he has revolutionised he club and deserves to go in a more respectful way. Am I 'content' with the 'annual top 4 trophy'? No. Of course not, and I am frustrated as hell that we haven't built upon the recent Cup successes and that the Spuds and Leicester are ahead of us in the table in this incredible season.
What gets me is the lack of willingness to accept that there are different viewpoints and the crazy tendency to make every argument just plain black and white, when life is full of grayscale. This is true of people on both sides of the argument. We actually all want the best for Arsenal and to boil it down to "I want the best more than you do" does not move us forward. One thing the recent 'demo' showed us is the divided view of Arsenal fans about the issues. I cannot explain as to why this should be, it would take a lot more intelligence than I possess.
#piskie said this in another thread:
"In my opinion, Wenger's time is coming to an end at Arsenal. I don't think he'll go this summer, but instead see out his contract and I think the club will plan for his successor next season. I can appreciate the frustrations of some fans, I feel it too. But as far as I'm concerned, holding up banners saying Wenger out and booing him and the players does nothing but cause friction and animosity. It's counter productive for the players and basically plays into the oppositions hands. I'm an old school supporter and I my view is that fans should get behind the players and the manager, especially more so when we're struggling. I realise this isn't everybody's approach, and I respect the fact that people are entitled to protest if they want. I just think they should realise that it does nothing to help the team though."
This articulates the situation for me. He has consistently said this yet has been vilified for his views throughout this campaign as a 'loser' and for speaking 'garbage'. Some of us think that can be said of the alternative views, but we are dismissed as WUMs. It's an interesting world.

 

The problem with Piskie is he does chat ****, a lot of it, he will say he is disappointed, we need to improve bla bla bla, but then tries to have his cake and eat it by also sticking to his usual spin job mode by trying to laud our consistent top 4 finishes like it's something meant to appease us.

 

I have to say I don't agree with your assessment. As I see it, his references to consistent top 4 placement show that we are achieving a high standard from which we are being judged. That, our stadium and the two cup wins should be lauded as triumphs. However, and I am sure he can speak for himself on this, he seems to be as frustrated as the rest of us that we haven't pushed on.

 

Lauding our stadium move gets pretty stale after persistent bottle jobs in the league, and vastly underachieving in Europe, when we don't win the league for 12 years, nor in Europe, and get dumped out of the last 16 six years running, sounds really really lame to come out and bring up the stadium to try and mask our underachievements.

Yes, the cups were good, but overall we have still underachieved a lot, in fact in 2014 when we won our first out of 2 cups, that was the season we got hammered 6-0, 5-1, 3-0, 6-3, and bottled our title challenge that year as well! So the cup wins have to be put in those contexts as well, the cups do not make up for all the bottle jobs we have done.

And I don't believe he is that frustrated about our failure to move on, I 100% percent believe that him and others, are fairly content with how things are, consistent top 4 finishes, the occasional nice tippy tappy performances, the odd cup every decade, etc, and the whole load of horse **** of oh so many other clubs would love to be in our position.

He's someone who tries to have his cake and eat it as I said, will say he is frustrated-dissapointed but will then come out with PR filled propaganda speaking Wenger and Gazidis and the BS they spew.

 

Well said. A87 has just been trounced

 

Let's wait and see how the Spuds handle their new stadium build and how the Hammers get on at Stadio Olympico

 

And this argument, I don't give a **** about how Spurs will get on, or West Ham, or if Chelski bottled it this year, I care about how we do, where we go. Why must we always try to look at the failures or possible failures of others to somehow excuse ourselves? See, again, this is a loser mentality!

I prefer not to compare us to the failures, but to the winners and champs, that's who I look to as the standard bearers, I mean if you do want to improve, that's who you realistically compare yourselves to, not those who are doing **** or will do ****.

So let's assume Spurs bottle their stadium move so bad and it makes them mid table, that will still not mean we have not underachieved, and bottled it year after year in the league, will not mean we have not been served with so many embarrassing ass kicking results, 8-2, 6-0, 5-1, 4-0, and on it goes.

 

And to another point, okay fair enough if the first few years were not so good for us when we moved to the Emirates, and we just got top 4's etc , but for the last few years the stadium move is no longer an excuse, the financial shackles have been lifted, the club, and Wenger have even confirmed it, there is money to spend now unlike before, so therefore you can no longer keep using the stadium as an excuse to mask our failures in the last 3-4 years.

The stadium move had nothing to do with our bottle job in 2014, or the bottle job in 2016, and the stadium move as certain as **** had nothing to do with Wenger not making a single outfield signing last summer when we had so much transfer money to spend.

 

I'm not excusing anything. I'm merely pointing out that your black and white arguments are not so simple, you need to consider the grayscale.

 

Well as I said, fair enough if the first few years were rough and we struggled, but the stadium at the moment can no longer be used as an excuse, we are financially very sound now, not constrained by repayments or the need to sell our best players.

And btw why only look to Spurs, West Ham, why not bring up Munich? They moved into a new stadium, look how they have gotten on, not too bad, not too bad at all. And they don't even charge as much as we do for tickets!

 

So we should look to the Munich example to see what can be learnt...grayscale

 

Yup, that you can dominate and kick asssssss. We need to do that.

 

I agree with that!