A couple of people have suggested that having threads on different subjects adds to the interest of the board. Let's see if one on a delicate subject can find persons who show such interest. I have called the thread Spirituality rather than religion deliberately as I think most of us have some deep feelings about spirituality even where we do not share religious beliefs. I will kick off with a few quotes from elsewhere when Cologne and I touched on the subject What is it that causes most of mankind to see something more than he can touch see or smell - is it just coincidence or is it inevitable that we are drawn that way for some reason?
Faithless, by Rush, from the Snakes and Arrows album pretty much sums it up for me. Abridged lyrics below. "I've got my own moral compass to steer by A guiding star beats a spirit in the sky And all the preaching voices - Empty vessels ring so loud As they move among the crowd Fools and thieves are well disguised In the temple and market place.... I've got my own spirit level for balance To tell if my choice is leaning up or down And all the shouting voices Try to throw me off my course Some by sermon, some by force Fools and thieves are dangerous In the temple and market place I don't have faith in faith, I don't believe in belief, You can call me faithless - You can call me faithless. But I still cling to hope, And I believe in love, And that's faith enough for me..."
This could be an 'interesting' thread...................... I have an old friend i went to Watford Grammar with.... Stephen Bachelor who became a Buddhist monk who wrote a book 'confessions of a Buddhist atheist' which almost sums up where I am at... I do meditate and have done for over 40 years.... and find great peace and energy which has informed my own work and approach to life. I 'struggle' to believe in any sort of personal God ... or Plan..... but on a personal note I have found great meaning in my life through my own spirituality. From a book chapter I wrote with a colleague : "The root of the term spirituality, is considered to have come from the Latin spirare, to breathe, and is associated with a person’s personal sense of their own essence and their relationship to it and their everyday lives. It is an essentially individual and unique point of reference. A personal spirituality is not specifically associated with an organized religion; it can only be defined by the individual It is quite possible to have a personal spirituality and have no belief in any higher power or life after death. For some people, there is a sense of inner spirit, a source of inspiration and strength with no religious meaning. We propose spirituality to have some or all the following components: A sense of something greater than the individual self or ego. A felt sense Values or belief system congruent to the individual The living core of being of the individual A sense of meaning" That is my starter for 10!
Glad you called this one 'spirituality' Leo. Because it is very hard to separate our attitudes towards the so called World religions, and their different interpretations, from the individual relationship to a 'higher being' on the other. World religions are always a problem, because they became so, in most cases, through forced conversion on the one hand, or because it was the accepted thing to do within a specific cultural context, on the other - and I do not think that God, if he/she/it exists, values these types of conversions. How can he value a conversion which was made at the point of a sword ? Yet millions have believed that such conversions were valid - otherwise we would have had no World religions, and we would have been left alone to ponder on what might be. But when a person prays, the form of that prayer may be conditioned by the Mullah, or whatever, but the content isn't - so the child in Damascus may pray for peace, and the child in Guildford for a pony at Christmas. But is praying itself not a form of bargaining - ie. if you do this or that I will believe in you forever ? Real spirituality is not found in a church, or in a mosque or a synagogue - but rather by turning inwards on the one hand, and by recognizing the 'Godliness' in all living things. By realizing that heaven and hell are not up there somewhere - but are all around us, and are only obtainable here on Earth. I believe that if there is a God he does not want us to strive to reach heaven (which is, in itself, a form of bargaining), but wants us to attain it here on Earth. Unfortunately so many millions have gone through life thinking that their rewards would come in heaven. So many Hindus have believed that whatever they, or others, suffer now is the result of Karma - that they have done nothing. I think it is impossible to imagine how the World would be now if there had never been such a thing as a World religion - many cities and civilizations would probably have never been built in the first place. We can know how many people have killed in the name of their God - the history books tell us - but we can never know how many have refrained from violence for the same reasons.
I should add to that rather long winded effort - without enough paragraphs as always, by saying that I prayed last sunday and it was answered by the divine intervention of Zuniga and Deeney.....which only goes to prove.....
Good man. Can you pray again on Sunday and we await a similar response from our divine players Monday?
I call myself a Christian believing in the past in Christ as a savior but..... doubts creep in and I find myself these days hoping I live by a Christian value set (sort of obeying the new testament whee I can) but in reality feeling that I know something spiritual exists but haven't a clue what it is, what it's motives are or how it works. Other forces are at play in life apart from those we can scientifically explain. We had a pretty weird experience a few years back in Venezuela. My wife has been wearing a tuma (pre colombian jewalry used by the native indians to ward of harm from evil spirits). We had one of our friends visit, she comes from a Guajiro family who are renowned for their spirituality, cursing etc. and one night the next morning my wife felt awful and the tuma shattered in two for no apparent reason. When talking about this we were told by natives that the tuma had received and taken the curse sent by somebody and should be discarded. We threw it out (pre colombian with gold etc. but not taking chances) and replaced and felt much better... Hoodoo, humdrum imagination who knows but it feels real. Add in the amount of Santismo prevalent down there now and you really feel the bad energy. Is it real, I think so but like you said in the opener we can't have a logical discussion because its not logical and many sane people will just say its imagination, insecurity or whatever. On a positive side and whether its just for comfort who knows I have a special relationship with the Robin red breasts, we have one seeming to attend at every family funeral and they seem to be trying to communicate with us. My grandmother on her death bed attracted the birds to her window for who knows what reason and the birds sensing of Auswitz and the like is amazing. No I haven't been drinking, just opening up to my madness...(some might say)
I am always faintly amused when players cross themselves as they go on the pitch. I am sure they do not actually believe that God is about to help their side as a result. It is more a sort of "touch wood" thing - and that too is a "spiritual" crossover
Footballers and supporters are strange creatures. I always had a set routine and ritual for getting changed. Even now, getting dressed for match day, there is more than a faint sense of the ridiculous as I go about it all. These days it is more of a habit and I absolutely recognise that what I do pre match has absolutely no bearing on on fieldevents at the Vic or wherever. And yes I dislike intensely the visual piety of, in the Watford camp, Iggy, Capoue, TD let alone Gomes who is more vocal off field but remains charismatic on it.
You are right in saying that a superstition can mean a temporary spiritual crossover Leo, but it is only a fleeting moment and is normally confined only to that one act. A superstition does not have t o be interelated to anything else eg. you can believe in black cats bringing bad luck but not necessarily that 4 leaved clovers bring good luck. This is different to that of a religion in that a belief would then be within a cannon group of other interrelated beliefs which interrelate to form the religion. Spirituality is the unique degree in which you feel yourself to be influenced by your superstition, belief or religion. In the case of a superstition it is over and gone within a few minutes - for some people who eg. keep away from a certain wood, or building at night because it has an unearthly feeling about it then it is just a brief feeling, which is gone as soon as he is distanced from the place or object. This is a different thing to describing someone as a spiritual person - because in that case the system of beliefs is the central point of his/her life.
I do agree that superstition, spirituality and religion are all very different. However in each case there is a feeling that there is something around that is not visible to the five senses. I actually think footballers cross themselves in some misguided belief that their god might thereby favour them today - or perhaps more that if they ignore god they do so at their peril. However I am sure if you sat them down and asked if they really believed god would intercede on their behalf rather than the other team they might agree he would not. Likewise touching wood, black cats and ladders are not likely to give anyone real confidence in their power - but might affect you if you then believed you would get good or bad luck. For me spirituality is the widest recognition ( I do not want to call it a belief) mankind has. There can be few people who faced with what is an amazing and awesome universe have never felt that there are forces or powers we do not yet recognise or understand. To stand on a totally dark hilltop at night and gaze at millions of stars has to leave you feeling small and insignificant. At that point - and many others - we recognise there are more things in heaven and earth........ Lastly religion. To me it is an aspect of spirituality. Having felt there must be some power above us it is man's way of trying to explain things. We cannot know where we come from or how the universe came into being so we try to create an explanation. I am sure many many generations ago - long before biblical times men sat round camp fires and made up stories to explain the inexplicable. Hence sun gods and gods of trees, lakes etc. As certain cultures became dominant in an area their stories became the dominant ones - Christians, Jews and Muslims have all inherited different aspects emanating from one god prevalent in the Mesopotamian region several thousand years ago. In Asia rebirth or family ancestry were the driving forces behind their religious beliefs.
“The things a man has heard and seen are threads of life, and if he pull them carefully from the confused distaff of memory, any who will can weave them into whatever garments of belief please them best. I too have woven my garment like another, but I shall try to keep warm in it, and shall be well content if it do not unbecome me.” I can identify with Yeats...
