Schumacher, Senna, Hamilton and Vettel - Career Statistics

There had been a lot of talk in the build up to the Singapore GP about the possibility of Hamilton matching Senna's career record of 41 wins in 161 races - Senna actually reached the milestone in his 158th but he competed unsuccessfully in three more grands prix before his tragic death at Imola.

In the event it was Vettel who won and edged ahead of Senna, leaving himself, Senna and Hamilton on 42, 41 and 40 victories respectively. After the race Alain Prost tweeted his congratulations, stating that his milestone of 51 was next in Vettel's sights.

The thing that really hit home with me however was the sheer enormousness of Schumacher's statistics. I'd always known how far out in front he was, but it put into context again the sheer unrelenting, prolonged spell of winning required to amass 91 race victories.

At the 2000 Italian GP, Schumacher equalled Senna's record in front of his adoring Tifosi and got his bid for a first World Championship for the Scuderia back on track. It was his 141st race, some 20 races earlier than Senna, and eight races sooner than Vettel reached the same landmark. He was 31 at the time, and went on to win the next three races in clinching his third world title. What's kind of surprising is he reached the milestone before his spell of real dominance had properly begun. In just four more seasons he'd doubled Senna's tally, adding another 42 race victories to sit on 83 at the end of 2004, before adding eight more victories in his final two seasons with Ferrari, setting his benchmark in his 240th race, in the 99 races after equalling Senna he added another 50 grand prix victories.

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Surely Schumacher's record will never be beaten. Hamilton and particularly Vettel, certainly have time on their side, having more victories than Schumacher did at their age, but currently they're nowhere near as prolific. Personally I think it's a fair assumption that Vettel will retire second on the list and Hamilton third, and if Vettel does beat Schumacher's record he'll probably win more than seven world championships. But to match Schumacher's win total they'll both need to enjoy a second period of domination. A tall ask in Hamilton's case given his first still isn't over.

One of the big contributors to Schumacher's success was the amount of wins he picked up in non-championship years, five in '97, six in '98 and seven in '06. Vettel on the other hand has taken two world championships winning just five races, just as Hamilton did in 2008.

With Super Licence rules being tightened this year to prevent drivers entering the sport at younger and younger ages, could this guy have the best chance at toppling Schumacher as the sport's most successful driver?:

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Great post. Schumacher's stats really are phenomenal. Seven drivers titles is almost the easier target now you'd think than race wins. 5 seasons of 10 wins a year are needed for either of them to get close to the race wins, and that'd almost certainly put Vettel on more than seven WDCs.

 

I think Vettel will beat Hamilton. There is an air of the Mercedes dominance coming to an end already and Ferrari beginning to come back to the top. But I dont think Vettel will catch Schu. He will need to score something like 49 wins in 156 races. thats an average of six wins every year for the next 8 seasons. Who knows what can happen in those 8 years, who will dominate and who will be the new star. Hey even Di Resta could come back and whoop his ass like he did in F3

 

Senna, Records and Greatness​

Interesting thread, there has been much talk recently about what can be achieved by the current crop of drivers. Senna's records are in the process of being surpassed by the likes of Vettel and Hamilton. Why? because Senna didn't stick around long enough to put a mark down in terms of records, but his potential greatness was noticed and respected, a lot more could have been achieved. One cannot doubt what was in store, (Schumacher vs Senna) for the next decade.

Schumacher and the Sentiment of Greatness​

A few weeks ago I watched a Murray Walker and Suzy Perry Schumacher special on the TV with my little brother, 1994 British Grand Prix - the cars were lining up on the grid as Murray Walker (as a commentator) was reading out the lineup. I told my brother this is the same guy that just 3 years ago was still competing with drivers that were young enough to be his kids. Yeah there was a pause, but I took that moment to really think about (and take in) the sheer span of racing that Michael took part in, and how long he contributed in this sport. Racing against drivers that are now in their 60's (Mansell) in the early part of his career, till drivers that were just starting out in (Hulkenberg) with Montoyas and Hakkinens thrown in-between. The thought is simply hair raising...

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Contribution to the sport for so long was instrumental in producing his records as AG said. It's worth noting what else could have been achieved if jumped into a title winning car on his debut at Jordan or Benetton, if the points system was much more generous in his career, or everything went smoothly in the late nineties (tyre blow-outs, slowing Coulthards at Spa, disqualification, an under-par Ferrari). But that is simply part of the game (as Raikkonen likes to say). It could also be said that if Michael had been driving a 14-15' spec Mercedes on his return in 2010, his comeback may have been more successful? Maybe not, Rosberg had the upperhand in most cases I know. But the scenarios would have been different.

I remember in late 2012, a lot of the media outlined how Michael had tarnished his career returning for a 3 year stint, how?

Lewis, his potential and the ever ticking clock​

In terms of Lewis Hamilton, he is clearly the fastest driver on the grid today, and has been for the past few years. But it's hard to really explain what he desires from his stint at Mercedes or beyond. He has mentioned that he wants to emulate Ayrton, and then what? At the moment his records are centred around his début as he burst on the scene in a potentially title winning Mclaren in 2007. Will he stick along as much as Michael did? My head says he won't. He has his heart set on music and other pursuits. You have to recognise that the Mclaren was under par in 2009 and in 2011, there was simply no chance in competing with Sebastian in the Redbull. These were years that he really could have shone. One simply has to ask, how long is that Mercedes going to stay at the front? And when will Lewis have enough?

Sebastian and Ferrari​

And then we turn to Sebastian Vettel, he has succeeded in his career with a revised points system -but we also have to comprehend that the strength of the competition in recent years has been vast. He has achieved a lot at a young age, and has yet to consider his future plans or convey them to the media. Lets be honest he isn't going anywhere soon. I think of Redbull as a mini-stint in his career, and his stay at Ferrari will be much longer (possibly till he retires), but what can he achieve there?
Well the Ferrari has improved a lot over the last season, and two days ago he sent chills across the F1 world, as he pulled three seconds away from Ricciardo on the first lap, it was later found he had enough left in the kitty to back Ricciardo into Raikkonen. Just a track that he likes? Or a warning from Ferrari to Mercedes? We will find out at Suzuka. What has to be understood is that when Mercedes put a foot wrong, Sebastian is always there. It harks back to Mclaren Mercedes vs. Ferrari days in the late 90's. Most of Sebastian's records are based on records "within a season", or "the youngest" - referencing to his Redbull days.
It all depends on how his Ferrari days will go, but in terms of Schumacher... lets just say it isn't impossible.

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In terms of younger drivers, I would keep my eye on Max Verstappen. Lets just keep it as simple as that, as it is too early to say anything - I cannot judge him yet.

 

I actually felt a bit disappointed with our British press and TV that their fanaticism with Lewis often doesn't reflect on what is really happening. All we've heard this weekend is how Lewis could equal Senna, yet there has been little or no reference to Vettel surpassing this mystical target.

I'm not a Vettel fan, but what he has achieved to date for me against the depth of competition is really pretty phenomenal.

 

Will Max win lots of titles, who knows, it really all depends on which cars he drives. Alonso is still probably the best driver, but he hasn't won a title for nearly a decade. You need to be in the car, of course the better you are the more chance you have of being in the right car, but you could make the wrong decision every time you move, like Jean Alesi who, despite being (in my eyes) one of the top 5 drivers at the time, only ever won 1 race, perpetually moving to the right team at the wrong time

 

A good thread. I've read almost every word of it.

Not to suggest that this is what you set out to do AG, but I've never made a secret of my disdain towards statistics when used as 'proof' of ability – and Big Ern's post above is a good example of why I feel like this – but Schumacher's achievement in sheer numbers, by whatever means and circumstance, is truly phenomenal.

 

indeed, statistics are nothing without the context that provides them

 

Quite.

 

87% of all statistics are made up anyway

 

Formula 1 greatness is more than statistics for me.

Michael professionalised the modern driver in a way no one else had seen. Fitter, stronger, consistent hungry machine with a genius in the background (Ross Brawn). He was fabulous but sadly we got stripped of the opportunity to watch he and Senna go toe to toe over the course of a full season. Truthfully, I don't think he came across much genuine opposition after that, in fact I'd probably say Adrian Newey was the biggest nemesis he faced as opposed to any one driver. He was head and shoulders the best of his era but his era was not the best, which is why I find him exceptionally tough to rate. Senna would have given us the true gauge, such a shame we never got the chance.

Vettel/Hamilton for me are the two quickest of the current crop but all we know of them is they both can dominate if given the machinery, and both have battled to a narrow win for their first world title, and for their others they had an out and out dominant car. I'd say their about equal and hopefully Alonso can get a good car soon and make things really interesting.

We could be here all day- they are all great in their own ways and I guess everyone has their own opinion.

 

I think Alonsos time in the F1 spotlight has faded, **** car and getting old himself. Most complete drive on the grid though, I always make that clear. And he brought down the red curtain in 2005-2006. Shame his Ferraris were all toilet paper.

 

In a statement that's bound to ruffle a few feathers I think Alonso and Hamilton are very very similar.

In very different ways they are both their worst enemies. You get the impression that the only thing that can stop Hamilton is himself, and the only thing stopping Alonso since his wins has been himself.

Vettel on the other hand never seems to come across as his own worse enemy. Yes he's had his moment but who hasn't? He gets the job done, smiles, and then disappears till called on again.

I think any team would be happy to have Vettel in their team. I think only a handful of teams would believe in themselves enough to take Alonso or Hamiliton. Thethree of them are top class and also very different, and variation is always good in my mind.

 

Completely agree with this. I thought it was very telling the amount of Red Bull engineers shaking his hand and congratulating him on Sunday. He acknowledged Renault's efforts in helping him to his four world championships when he heard they were splitting from Red Bull, and was pretty much the only guy in the team who gave them credit while they were winning. He builds a lot of bridges and doesn't seem to burn any. I was saying a couple of years ago I thought he was the only driver on the grid who could go where he wanted, and despite his bad year last year I don't think that's changed - it's possibly even been enhanced by how well he got on with Ricciardo despite being beaten. It's not just his talent but his personality and work ethic which I think appeals to teams.

 

He's always seemed a genuinely nice, humble guy to me. He seems in control of his ego, unlike the other two and his longtime whipping boy Webber. It's interesting what you say about building bridges, because the person he's had the most praise for is Newey, and I can't help thinking part of the reason for the RBR sell up is because, sooner or later, Newey is going to Ferrari, much like Schumacher took Brawn.
Newey + Ferrari + Vettel. hmmm.

 

I think Newey's finished in F1 to be quite honest. There's been a lot of talk of him designing boats and road cars, I don't think he'll feel much of a pull to return to F1 once he starts working on other projects.

 

Vettel has a brilliant personality behind the scenes it appears. He can pull off that cheeky chappy kind of image and the timings at Ferrari couldn't have been better for that sort of character during a rebuild and a new atmosphere.

Having said that, he is an absolute ruthless winner and his moaning about F1s modern cars soon disappears when he crosses that line first, you can hear just how driven to win he is.

Remember though, all of his happy times have been built on unparalleled successes. He didn't spit the dummy out as such last year but he was comprehensively beaten and struggled for motivation.

His first season at Ferrari was low on expectation but 3 wins in 2015 and possibly one or two more yet means that will all change in 2016. It appears they have the momentum to be fighting for wins next season but if they aren't, then that will be the first real test in their relationship.

Alonso is someone who deserves credit given his past- he has handled the disappointment really well this year and he did say in the off season that he has matured into a man since the infamous 2007 season.

 

I never thought I would say this, but I actually quite like him!

 

The press report what people want to read. Most British people want, naturally, to hear about British drivers. Hamilton is currently the top British driver.

It's hardly rocket science.

 

Oh yeah I forgot we only watch F1 for one driver and nothing to do with the sport! I forgot how thick I am, with my lack of understanding of physics and in particular rocket science!

I think you need to revisit the meaning of a Motorsport fan. F1 started long before 2007.