OT Gaza, the Algerian donation and the closed thread

First of all my humble and total apologies for my reaction to the murder of the three Israeli teenagers, which although utterly foul should have been the high ground from which Israel used international sympathy to launch a drive towards peace, not thousands of ****ing missiles to kill hundreds of innocent civilians. If they wanted to force Palestinians to side with Hammas, then they couldn't have done a better job (which, btw Sis I consider is the reason to discount your conspiracy theory that Israel killed their own teenagers to start this spiral - surely even they're not ****ed that much in the head to think that this escalation will 'solve' anything?).

Anyway, I did have a link to an appeal site that I gave to last time, but as you see it's now closed:

http://www.dec.org.uk/appeals/east-africa-crisis

If anyone knows a bona-fide appeal line, one that ensures aid doesn't go to Hammas like this one did, I'd really appreciate them putting it up.

Again, my sincere condolences for the FOUR teenagers that were recklessly murdered by maniacs, and the hundreds more that since been killed by state-organised murderers, and to the thousands living in terror.

Why, why on earth did I think/hope the Israelis might have used this tragedy as a springboard to peace, and that Hammas would have had more sense than to start lobbing missiles after the Palestinian boy's murder?

Old and deluded. And sad too.

 

Knock knock

[video=youtube;doYmYby_7mk]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=doYmYby_7mk[/video]

 

A lot of nonsense from two groups of people who don't want peace. They want one-upmanship. If peace were desired they'd have it by now.


BTW- my proposal for peace:

1: All political prisoners released.
2: Full and complete removal of Israel settlements from Palestinian lands. But allow settlers to "buy" their property back again from Palestinian government for half value, if they agree to live under Palestinian laws and authority.
3: Palestine granted independence but forced to sign constitution stating it shall not develop it's own military or military capabilities.
4: Instead Palestine to become a protectorate of Isreal. Israel must promise to protect Palestine from invasion. For this- Palestine must pay a FAIR fee to Israel
to be determined by an impartial UN body- only to cover the legitimate costs of protecting Palestine.
5: Set up a no tax/tariff agreement between the two nations- and allow citizens of either nation to work freely in the other.

Agreement to be reviewed after 20 years.




To me would be fair. Palestine get their lands back. Israel would not have any legitimate fear of Palestine rising up against them again... and terrorism should be reduced. The goal would be to slowly establish Palestine back to full statehood, as a friend and trading partner of Israel... hopefully after 20 years Israel would trust Palestine because the two economies would grow into each other.

Seems win-win to me.


There again... neither side wants peace, they want one-uppance- so it won't happen.

 

As fair as it gets, but I fear it'll never happen in my lifetime. I know the 'peace' dividend that came to Ulster put a lot of paramilitary gangsters out of business that had grown fat and accustomed to a certain lifestyle and status that their talents and natural abilities/intelligence would not have afforded them in properly functioning society. Too many vested interests. Too many thugs who couldn't make an honest living without conflict.

 

Must be terrifying.
I hope (if I was religious I'd pray) that both sides can come to their senses and put an end to that madness.

 

We all need to stop pretending this is a war between Hamas and the IDF.

Palestinians had the joy of being occupied by the British and then most of their land, the best land, taken from them to create what we call Israel.

Talk about a people a civilian society who never had an army, getting royally screwed, Israel's creation was made possible by the Jewish lobby which was part of the parliament. Since before 1900. Israel's creation was long in the making by the 1940s and it had nothing to do with the Holocaust either. Two entirely separate things not related at all.

There were 750,000 Palestinians forced out in 1948 by well armed Israeli militias, 31 massacres, Al Nakba, (the catastrophe). This is what they got after British occupation and 70% of their best land taken. 1967, another brutal occupier of even more of their land taken, more massacres like the one committed by Nobel Peace prize winner Sharon.

Hamas formed in 1994 I think, around that time, before them the PLO, who were installed by the US and Israel after Israel decimated the PLO in Lebanon.
So people pointing to Hamas as part of the problem, are misguided, Palestinians had been suffering from Israel's right wing lunatic racism, ethnic cleansing and barbarism for 60 years before Hamas ever appeared, in fact Hamas are a product of Israel's policies and anyone with half a brain and even a clue about the history can see that.

Donga, those 3 Israeli teens, when they were kidnapped, one called the police, they were shot as heard on the call, 2 Palestinians kidnapped them, apparently not Hamas either. Netanyahu knew, the Israeli Knesset knew, the media knew, Netanyahu put a court gag order on all parties to keep that quiet, they had the gps data from the phones, the fact the kids were shot as well, over 2 weeks prior. We can clearly see why now.

in the time those teens were "missing" hundreds of arrests and beatings, 20,000 Israeli troops trashed the place looking for them, killing 6 Palestinians arresting and hospitalising many more.

Now fast forward to the buring of the Palestinian teen, it is a police matter, not a military one as it was for the Israeli teens, and the people arrested, several Israeli adults and minors apparently, are all claiming temporary insanity.

So, Israeli teens murdered, Gaza gets bombed, mostly women and children dread.
Palestinian teen murdered, it is a police matter.

People see Hamas as terrorists, thanks to the media which totally dehumanises Palestinians. The BBC is a prime example, an article about the dead Palestinian teen has 4 pictures,. the teen, a Palestinian protestor burning tires, Hamas in masks and with rifles and a pic of the three dead Israeli teens, the pictures tell a story, an intended one, that Palestinians bring this all on them selves. The actual text of the article was just plain biased towards Israel as well.


Hamas are not terrorists, not an army, they are pathetically weak, fools claim they hide behind civilians, they are the elected government and are within the confines of what is a densely populated open air concentration camp we call Gaza. There is nowhere to operate from that is not populated and when you face such racism and oppression, seeing daily, the racism, murder and total humiliation of your people how does one sit there and take it, the only way they can answer is firing rockets which they can barely aim, the vast majority of which land in open spaces causing no damage and no fatalities. Those rockets are more a pathetic cry for help than a military weapon as shown by Israelis out enjoying the cool night air and the view of Gaza being bombed because they knew the odds of being hit with one of those rockets are slim because they are a pathetic weapon that just happened to fall on unlucky civilians.

Give Hamas pinpoint accuracy weapons like Israel has and let them target the IDF, oh wait, Israel has accurate weapons and kills many many more civilians than Hamas


There have been 0 Israeli deaths, yet the technologically advanced IDF have killed scores of the elderly,women and children in this round alone in "Protective edge" an operation planned well before the teens went missing.
Only today I seen a Palestinian funeral, footage, and then an IDF missile strike wiping it out.

The video above is accurate, knocking on the roof, they have been doing it for years.

Also, if you are targeting terrorists as Israel calls them, why do they call the phones in the buildings first to tell everyone to get out? Because they are systematically destroying Gaza. The goal, all of the land from Jordan to the sea, the more refugees feeling Gaza the better for Israel, this has been the plan in action since 1948.


So to hear Netanhayu talk about suffering of people, one can't help but see the irony.

For anyone wanting to know the truth, there are a lot of bigots and antisemitic folk out there, best to avoid.

These sources are good
Norman Finklestein, Jewish, both parents were in Nazi camps and his extended family was wiped out by the Nazis.
Miko Peled. Jewish. Israeli, served in the IDF, his father a famous Israeli general, Matti Peled, his grandfather signed their declaration of independence.
Nurit Peled-Elhanan. Professor of Language at the Hebrew University of Jerusalem. Jewish, Israeli. Nurit writes about Israel's racist education and how it prepares Israelis for the military and the occupation and how this education imbues the victim outlook
Richard Goldstone, Jewish, wrote the Goldstone report on the 2nd intifada, for the UN.
Then there are the orthodox Jewish groups who are totally pissed because the right wing nazi movement in Israel has hijacked Judaism and amalgamated it with the racist apartheid Zionist secular national movement.

When you get down ot the history and the facts, Palestine has been on the short end of a bloody stick since the late 1800s, and still are, yet we are all forced to remember one tragedy and let it control many aspects of our lives while we get to watch another one unfolding in slow motion for 60 years and no one does f**ing anything.

Sadly, Israelis are actual victims of their own government who is committing sociocide on their own population.


It is totally worth donating to Palestine. Regardless of the bulls**t the media feeds us, they are and have been suffering for a very long time, they never had 1 tank, 1 plane ship or artillery piece, they were a completely civilian society until Israel created the environment that makes it impossible for a peaceful civilian society to survive.

 

Sisu, The British did not occupy Palestine in 1948. They were asked to administer the the region by the UN and keep 'a lid' on the brewing conflict between Jews and Arabs. The British did not have the firepower or manpower to operate more than a policing role. So you can leave out the insinuation that the British favoured one side more than the other.

By 1948 there was greater sympathey in Britain in general for the Arab position that the Jewish one following the actions of the Irgun and other Jewish terrorist groups.

 

Also, my mate is in Golan right now, with UN peacekeepers who are essentially protecting Israel from the upheaval there which is timely given the operation they are carrying out on the other side of the country against gaza, one might ask why the peace keepers are not between Palestine and Israel? That information comes from boots on the ground as it were, much better than a link to a web page.

The answer, the US vetoes any action and that is because of the lobbying that goes on there, the US vetoes any action the UN wants to take. Some stupidly put up a straw man argument against this by saying "oh year Israel controls America, sure.." in a sarcastic manner, but in truth, lobbyist groups have massive influence on foreign policy, especially is there are political benefits which there always are when you pander to influential lobbyist groups, remember these same lobbies were successful in robbing Palestinians of their land in the first place to create Israel. Some people just have no clue what they are on about and should just shut up.

Human Right watch reports are called politically motivated by the US when they concern Palestine but the same organisation's reports on Syria are fully accepted. In fact the same HRW reports on Ukraine were dismissed by the US regarding known factual numbers of refugees from Ukraine, same for the UN report, just dismissed.

 

All Israel has to do, is pull out of Palestine, sign a peace deal and the rockets will stop and the IDF missiles will stop, the racism and murder will stop.

Netanhayu does not want those rockets to stop, neither do his murderous racist buddies, not until every Palestinian has left and Israel has ll of the land from Jordan to the sea. Israelis are even waking up to this, over 100 college campuses hold demonstrations against the occupation and for the right of return, hopefully this is the path to peace but they must remove that psychotic government.

In the words of Norman Finklestein, "I will not let the suffering of my family and parents at the hands of the Nazis be used as an excuse to commit crimes against Palestine and it's people"

Norman is banned from entering Israel. A Jew denied the right to return home.. because he disagrees with the poisonous government. A bit of hypocrisy right there.

 

What a childish statement. Sounds very much like statements pre-Peace Accord from the IRA. All Isreal has to do. Well what do the other states in the region have to do? Methinks the hypocrisy lies in your posting as well.

 

The IRA signed up to the accord Dave and gave up their weapons, and are now power sharing in the North of Ireland, the current situation between Israel/Palestine is far more complex and far more deadly than loyalist terrorists and their counterparts in the IRA were before the peace process.
There is absolutely no chance of Israel agreeing to a peace accord or power sharing because their expansionism and theft of land would have to stop, and that ain't gonna happen.

 

If one has an affiliation with one side or the other, then taking sides is understandable.
For the rest of us, it isn't.
The inability to see the opposing view is one of the reasons these conflicts arise in the first place, and certainly will not effect a solution.

 

Page, I only used the NI example to show that whereas Sisu states "all Isreal has to do", the real situation and the way forward if far far more complex. Neither was I even suggesting that one side or the other held the moral high ground. From this far removed, it is hard for us to understand why some Israelis use different references reagrding the history and ownership of land. But there are always at least 2 sides to very argument. Who is right and who is wrong is always going to be open to debate.

 

Thanks for the comprehensive history lesson. I'm sure someone pro-Israeli could do exactly the same. I had two Irish great-grandparents who instilled a history into their daughter (my paternal grandmother) full of Soupers, Drogheda, stolen Irish treasure and a deliberate plot by Queen Victoria to starve the Irish peasants out of their land (wasn't the potato bight, evidently). My uncle, on the overhand, was a mason and member of the Orange Lodge. His history of Ulster was full of massacres of the Protestants in the 17th century, James II and Jacobites.

Y'know, they're probably both right, and probably both wrong. But if anyone does has a working link to a current, bona-fide charity for the people of Gaza I'd much appreciate it. Also, I will (again) write to my local Labour party (our MP is a ****ing Tory) in some sort of passive-aggressive gesture to have this debated in Parliament. It's a scandal and I'm paying to alleviate my conscience, and others may want to too.

If it benefits those people, I'll do that. But I won't fire rockets, however ineffective you say they are, at innocent people no matter how **** my life is, not because I'm superior (my dad bombed innocent German civilians in WWII, and I don't blame him) because it isn't my fight. And 99% of the trouble in that part of the world is foreigners barging in there on racial, religious, political and economic reasons to 'solve' the problems of the world. And that list doesn't just include Bush and Blair, monsters as they were.

 

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f**k Israel and thats not just being controversial. Apart from the illegal land grab , Israel has no regard for international law as they have even stated this week again. They are a rogue state in all but name because it suits the U.S. and Britain to side with them.

Imagine for a second Iran or Algeria or Egypt started doing what Israel are doing we'd have world war 3 on our hands.


As for the Rockets from Gaza 99% if not more are wiped out by the Iron Dome one of the most sophisticated defence measures on the planet.

In this latest episode 4 people have been wounded in Israel and hundreds of civilians KILLED in Gaza.

In the picture below it shows Israeli people gathering to watch as hundreds of innocents are slaughtered and each explosion is met with huge cheers.

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Israel's society has been conditioned for this. The population have been lied to for decades through media and education propaganda to believe that Palestinians bring it on themselves, that they are primitive and violent. This is according to Israeli educators, not my opinion.
Israel's government actually destroy books they don't like, this is the sort of thing you would expect of Stalinist Russia or Nazi Germany.

When you do this to your own population it is sociocide.

Also, this hardening of the population has other affects, a recent study by the Hebrew university of Jerusalem found that 1 in 2 kids in Israel suffer abuse of some kind, be it emotional physical or sexual. Hardly surprising when you prepare your people to be heartless when it comes to the world around you where every Arab is an enemy to be despised and every criticism of the state's actions is antisemitism.

I have often quoted facts and statistics and info on massacres to an Israeli, including HRW and UN reports and they always say without exception that the facts I provided are lies and propaganda and I am called a Nazi. This is how they are taught to respond to unpalatable facts from an early age, that they are the victims and that anyone who disagrees is antisemitic, you are not antisemitic if you are against Right Wing zionism, not all zionists believe in a Jewish state for Jews, I agree as that is a racist concept, a homeland I have no problem with, not a racist apartheid state, I believe Israel has a right to be there, regardless of how criminal it's inception was, it is there now, and the current population have had nothing to do with the creation of the state, it's Netanyahu and his seriously demented people, they are literally Nazis, I do not use that lightly here, they are evil twisted people.
Israel has 2 sets of laws one for Israelis and one for Palestinians, if you live in Israel, you cannot marry a Palestinian from the west bank


The simple fact about the 22 day war, the 2nd intifada, Israel had previously had it's ass kicked by Hezbollah in Lebanon and to restore it's fear deterrent the IDF was ordered to knock the crap out of Palestine to make an example of them. "The armed forces acted like hooligans, which I demanded" Tzipi Liviini then foreign Minister after the killing of over 1400 Palestinians.
UN Report by Jewish man Richard Goldstone.
22 day war- 2nd intifada.
Occured when there was a food blockage into Palestine. Hamas agreed to not fire rockets, Israel agreed to let food in. Israel confirmed Hamas did everything possible to maintain that ceasefire, though some rockets were fired. This was not on order of Hamas, Israeli armed forced agreed with this. Israel still did not lift the food blockage, and then broke the cease fire by carrying out airstrikes in Gaza, after which Hamas then reacted.
Israel launched 3000 airstrikes and even more artillery barrages, commencing at midday at a time when kids would be in the streets and the population going about their business.

Israeli Fatalities and damage
11 dead, 5 from friendly fire, 1 of the 11 civilian
1 home partially destroyed

Palestinian fatalities and damage.
1400 dead, 1000+ civilians, 350 of them children.
6000 homes destroyed totally
4 hospitals
20 ambulances
100+ Mosques and minarets
Infrastructure
Palestine's only flower mill

Some myth busting here.
No evidence ambulances were used to transport weapons
No evidence of Mosques and hospitals being used for military purposes.
No evidence of Hamas using human shields, one of the biggest lies by Israel in their defence, There was some evidence of the IDF actually using Palestinian human shields, worth mentioning that there was international condemnation a year or so later when it came out that the IDF was using 6 or 7 year old Palestinian boys to open suspected bomb packages.
The Israeli airforce leadership openly bragged that they missed only 1 target after the 2nd intifada. So much for collateral damage. 6000 homes totally destroyed remember.
Palestinians do not put bombs in children's backpacks, I have seen this lie circulating, no doubt who puts that stuff out there, again dehumanising Palestinians.

That is just one small snapshot, 22 days in an ethnic cleansing going on since 1948, well actually, prior to that. Under a different but no less merciful occupier who then handed Palestine over to an even worse entity.

Listening to many Jews and many Israelis, they refer to the painful and difficult transition from what they thought was true to the reality of what Israel is and what it was built on. It was not an easy transition to have everything you believe turning out to be conditioning and propaganda. I can only commend the people that are brave enough to examine the facts and accept them even though they are at odds with their most core beliefs.


Why do the IDF phone call buildings before they bomb then? They profess to do this a lot, because the buildings are the targets, and it is almost impossible to get a building permit if you are Palestinian, it is a slow ethnic cleansing, forcing more and more out and leaving little for those who are left.

Palestine's hospitals spend as much time out of power as with power as no fuel is allowed in.

Also, look at who is advising the Egyptians in Peace negotiating, Tony f**ing Blair, the lying sack of s**t that has killed many British service men with his lies. Peace Envoy? gotta be f**ing joking, now he advises a man who is a brutal dictator, locking up journalists protestors and anyone else that opens their mouth, a peace deal that was always going to fail.


About peace deals I will say this, Palestine has no obligation to recognise Israel's right to exist, they have an obligation to live peacefully with a neighbouring country, this is and never was a reason for no peace deal, it is Israel using something Palestine will not accept, after all Israel has done, to ensure peace talks fail, before they have done this with assassinations and now those 3 teens were Netanyahu's way out of the pressure to make peace, it is why he put a gag order on the information those 3 teens were dead for 2 weeks so he could bang his war drums and prepare for the attacks.

Anyone that thinks Hamas is a terrorist outfit just, and I do not mean it as an insult, is working off of BBC history. Palestine suffered 60 years of tragedy before Hamas appeared. Show me a violent occupation where the people just took it. Remember the French resistance, they used any means to kill Germans they could, even collaborating French civilians got it in the neck, yet when Palestine fights in an asymmetric way, the only way it can, it becomes terrorism, well, the Germans called resistance fighters terrorists too, and so does the US before they f**ed a 15 year old into gitmo for 10 years for having the courage to take on US troops in a firefight in his homeland. History repeats it's self and the lessons are ignored.

People think the lobbies have no power, then how come the white house has come out and backed Israel in what the UN and Human Rights groups are calling war crimes


The Nazis
Dispossessed people of their land and wealth.
Massacred civilians based on ethnicity
Dehumanised the people as savages
Carried out mass killings of civilians in reprisal actions
creates milliions of refugees fleeing their racist horror
Indoctrination of children into the system
What kids are taught, everyone elses fault and that criticism is antisemitic
[video=youtube;DiRNaPN4OSg]http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_detailpage&v=DiRNaPN4OSg[/video]



I could easily be speaking of right wing lunatics who have been in power in Israel since before I was born instead of the nazis

several thousand protest outside the BBC recently for it's coverage on this conflict, as it is absolutely pro Israel.

Miko Peled, served in the IDF, father was a General in the IDF, grandfather signed the declaration of independence, also his sister lost a kid in a suicide bombing. I think his opinions and views are valid more than most
[video=youtube;etXAm-OylQQ]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=etXAm-OylQQ&feature=player_detailpage[/video]

Nurit Peled-Elhanan, professor of language at the Hebrew University of Jerusalem on Israeli education and Palestinians.
[video=youtube;pWKPRC-_oSg]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pWKPRC-_oSg[/video]

Norman Frankenstein, on playing the holocaust card to defend Israel's actions.
[video=youtube;h2ukWbGe19I]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=h2ukWbGe19I&feature=player_detailpage[/video]

Norman Finkelstein - Legitimate vs. Illegitimate Disagreements on the Israel/Palestine Conflict
[video=youtube;yV3CvtIAA9A]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yV3CvtIAA9A[/video]

 

Neither side wants peace? Ridiculous and ludicrous.

Both sides are not slaughtering each other since 1948, Israel has been slaughtering Palestinians since then, that comment is far too simplistic and utterly wrong. When you attack someone and they fight back you call that "neither side wanting peace" and nicely boil it down to peace talks, without including the history and the facts of which I provided many, lets even forget the law is on Palestine's side here, international law.

A comment borne of the media's perceptions that 1 this is a war, and 2 Palestine is half to blame. Neither is true, this is not a war and anything Palestine does at this point given the last 6 decades is justified desperation.
The very thoughts the media aim to put into the heads of level headed people with NO understanding of the history or the facts, simple talk of peace deals and applying your own logic, unless you've been to Palestine? is misguided. I've not been but I've met many a Palestinian and a few more that have been there, work mates and so on who traveled to Israel as tourists so they could go look for themselves.

Israel is f**ing ethnic cleansing the land, wtf are you talking about neither side wants peace, if one side is trying to ethnically cleanse the other people, how can a peace deal come about, unless you think it is not ethnic cleansing. I suggest you watch the people who are actually informed in the above videos but I assume you wouldn't be bothered in which case you probably shouldn't be stating spreading nonsense like "neither side wants peace".

Why do you think Israel does not want above all Palestine to become a UN member state, or a state, because then the ethnic cleansing will have to stop. What did Israel do any time Palestine looked to become an observing member of the UN, sanctions and provocation of Hamas

Really, it's pretty sad, people saying that complete tosh and others agreeing.


Yes neither side wants peace, Hamas or whomever Palestinians want to elect want this to continue.

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You can see Gaza is not even a whole entity any more, that picture is slightly out of date too, it's worse now.

 

depends whos on each side.

I think nobody living in a hovel in the north of gaza gives a stuff about anything bar survival.

 

Ceasefire atm it looks like, for a few hours after those 4 kids playing football getting bombed on the beach by the IDF. Another 4 kids.

Peace talks.. I reiterate the point that the Israeli government put a gag order on the news the teens were dead and where they were for over 2 weeks. This is not a theory. Netanyahu then used that time to get the war machine apparatus ticking over. Sent thousands of troops into Palestine to arrest beat interrogate and eventually murder 6 people after only days prior shooting 3 Palestinian kids in the street. Where are the f**ing UN? The US prevent them from acting just like the French did in Rwanda.

Anyone doubts this, here is a girl asking Obama about Israeli human rights abuses. Listen to him stall twist and dance around the simple direct question from this girl. It's actually pathetic and shows how these supposed "leaders" crack under an un vetted but very simple question.
[video=youtube;oniFAoHgSmw]http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_detailpage&v=oniFAoHgSmw[/video]

Egypt want the destruction of Hamas so they were never going to be a good broker for a ceasefire and all parties knew this already, it was a simple ploy. Never mind the fact that Tony f**ing Blair is advising that murdering oppressive Egyptian tyrant. Egypt also blockage.

The UN need to get peacekeepers in there, forget right and wrong for the minute, arms blockage of both Israel and Palestine. Ban on arms sales to either by any country. Not going to happen though is it even though it makes perfect sense. When George Bush temporarily froze the payments to Israel the settlement building stopped immediately.

A valid argument is simply, the occupation is illegal and the settlements are illegal. Yet the UN have failed to act for over 40 years. The reasons are a matter of historical record though. One country vetoes any action time and time again. We are not talking invasions here when I say action, just sanctions, arms sales bans, no financial support and so on, and those can't even get passed in the UN never mind peacekeepers being deployed, which might I add Israel requested from the UN and bitched when the first arrivals were not in great enough numbers. Just f**ing sickening, Israel has a militarised society and a well armed and trained military and it can defend it's self. Palestine hasn't got one APC and they are just allowed to be hammered with 80% civilian casualties.

I just when I read NATO lovers talking self important drivel.
More sanctions against Russia when there is still no evidence they are doing anything, while these same idiots sit on the fence on what is factual human rights and war crimes as well as illegal occupation and illegal expansion as well as Ethnic cleansing and apartheid. How can you not be a total joke when you see things like that, or miss the contradictions.

 

I'd not link issues like this

isreal is isreal and its disgusting

ruiisa and ukraine is expansionist and a separate issue.