You know what really bugs me?

Right, forgive me for starting a new thread on this, and i apologise now if it gets out of hand, but i'm angry! It took the FA an age to decide what to do about Anelka and his quinelle. Why? And what irks me most about this whole situation is the lack of support from the 'kick it out' people. Okay, i'm sensitive to it because i'm Jewish, but let's be honest, if this was a sign against another minority race (not mentioning any in particular!) they'd be on it like a car bonnet! Surely racism against any race is unacceptable. Why is Anelka waiting to see if he's found 'guilty'?? He made the gesture, we all saw it, we've seen it a gazillion times since on sports programmes. He's guilty. Ignorance is no excuse. He needs banning, and his club need to be behind the side of what's right, not behind an obvious show of anti Semitism. Come on Kick it Out people, get on the case!! Make some noise at least! Helloooo, anyone there???


<deep breath>
</rant>

 

Hi Hornette. I'm also Jewish, though about as religious as a pork pie. Personally I'd rather they took their time on this if it means coming to the right punishment. Regardless of how obvious the case against him, he deserves a fair hearing in my opinion.

The punishment will be an interesting one for me. If words in the heat of the moment from Terry/Suarez warrant as much as eight games then a clearly more calculated and intentionally noticeable action should be considerably more.

What are your views on the 'yid' issue at Spurs? I have to say I couldn't give a toss if Spurs fans sing it or not and am yet to meet anyone who does but radio phone-ins seem split.

 

I am sorry, but there is no way he can claim ignorance. He is a mate of Dieudonné a so called comedian who invented the gesture. Dieudonné has been banned from doing his act by the French councils because it is clearly anti-Semitic. He is also a mate of Jean-Marie Le Pen of NF fame. This month the minister of the interior, Manuel Valls, said the following. "The struggle against racism and antisemitism is an essential concern of government and demands vigorous action." Approx. 75% of the population agreed with the minister, which makes a welcome change for him.

We wait to see what the FA will do, but will Anelka finish up in front of the courts? I doubt it, but Dieudonné has appeared before the courts here for his views and gestures.

 

Well put Frenchie.... clairifies it for those of us who aren't up to speed with this gesture....

 

I have to say I am a little confused about this issue. Anelka claims he did it in support of this French guy who is a friend and that this Quinelle thing is an anti-establishment symbol. When it first kicked off they said on the radio it was considered an anti-Zionist symbol and recently 2 different French journalists stating it was and wasn't anti-Semetic.
Obviously H you see the issue clearly, but was you aware of what was happening in France and this symbol thing before Anelka fell into this?

 

been a long thread on this since last year on QPR report
http://qprreport.proboards.com/thread/38036/wbas-anelka-charged-fa

 

Hi

I'm probably about as religiously observant as you, but i feel my roots, and they're important to me.

I agree, he deserves a fair hearing, what i don't get is why there is any question of intent! It's blatantly obvious he knew what he was doing, and he has now brought it to world attention...i wonder if that was part of the plan, or maybe that's just me looking too deeply, i do that sometimes! lol

As for the Y word...i hate it. I've never used it, not even from one Jewish person to another, nor could i, and i hate what it represents. I really don't like hearing it from Jews, let alone non-Jews...it frustrates me that it is used so flippantly..and yet, if it was the N word, it wouldn't be allowed. Inverted racism?

 

No w_y, this was something that was obviously very known in France, and nowhere else...not anymore!

 

Thanks H - Reading what OFH writes, it does seem a rather sinister affair.

 

I don't know enough about the issue to have formed an opinion of it one way or the other - other than if it is done to consciously cause offence, then it should probably be stopped.

One thing does puzzle me though - I doubt that Anelka is better known around the world than this guy, who managed to do the same thing without such an outcry (well, not that I remember hearing about) - so what's the difference?

 

Don't start me off on that one!

 

Maybe Anelka deserves a little credit here. I along with everybody I know was totally unaware of this sign before all this. It has certainly brought the matter into public awareness now.

 

Anything that inspires hatred and offence to minorities should rightly be punishable and dealt with appropriately. I see no real reason to rant simply due to the time taken to consider the case - whoever considered the FA speedy and efficient? What matters is that they do look at it properly and take action. I find it as believable that he considered it as an anti-establishment gesture as I do for people found with child pornography claiming they were researching for a book on it ( a defence tried by a teacher at one of my kids primary schools some years back). I trust the authorities to deliver a fair and just verdict - if they don't then that may be the time to rant.

As for the Yid / n****r thing I do not like proper words being banned. I do not like censorship. It is how they are used that should be considered. n****r derives from the Latin niger meaning black and is itself maybe not an appropriate way of describing someone but is only really bad when used offensively. However because of its extensive use that way it is difficult to see many occasions when the word can be used without causing offence. This paragraph ought to be one such exception yet I am sure that simply by writing it down many will object. We have been know as limeys and poms and if someone used the Latin for white - album - as a nickname I doubt it would be considered offensive until it was used with hatred in mind.

The Yids or Yiddish matter is similar. The Yiddish language is a fact and the term originates from the Ashkenazi Jews. It described a people no less than Jews does. Calling someone a Jew has been used hatefully but who would want the word banned from our language because of some ignorant and vile people. Spurs fans who use the term do so to affirm positively with their background culture - it is controversial but I do believe that the authorites need to consider the context and intent of what is said rather than too simplistic a knee jerk reaction.

I look forward to the day when people of all nationalities, religions, sexual inclination and gender are proud of who they are and are not scared by name calling. When I was a boy the ditty sticks and stones can break my bones but names can never hurt me was used. I disagree with that when names are used to incite hatred that can lead to violence.

It is a very sad fact that although I typed the correct word into this response the site it gets amended by the use of asterisks to replace the letters I typed. What a sad world when we cannot be allowed even to see something that others want to censor

Enough said from my part. Sorry for the ramble but thanks to H for raising the subject

 

Great post Harry Far too often, the use of many a word is frowned upon when the reality is that it is the manner behind the word that actually causes the offence. Additionally, there are cultural differences that need to be taken into account - as you point out with the word 'Yid'.
If someone identifies as being Yiddish, I can't see what is wrong with them calling themselves that. A bit like the great Australian 'Bastard' - a term of endearment or an insult depending upon context, and not a word that should be banned from the language IMO.

As for the day you look forward to - don't hold your breath as I doubt it will ever come, certainly not whilst there are borders between countries and religion for people to argue over - both things which could be done away with I suppose. It's hard, however, to see how we could do away with gender....

 

One thing that puzzles me is the idea of what is religious or racial hatred. I shall try and explain.

We Jews are almost a race apart because marriage outside the faith is unusual and has be so for hundreds if not thousands of years. So to be anti-Jewish is racial rather than religious. I appreciate Jews from the Sepharad, Bukhara or one of the Ashkenazim are different, both in appearance and thought, and this would lead the idea of being anti-Jewish back toward being an act of religious hatred.

To be anti-Semitic is clearly racial, often mistaken for being against Jews and therefore religious, but there are others involved as all people speaking semitic languages are (strangely) semites. Hebrew is the most obvious but there are the Maltese, Bedouins and many other groups who qualify.

To be against black, white or orientals is obviouly racial discrimination.

Then we have the biggest, most aggressive and perhaps most vociferous group in their current pursuit of wanting to be seen as the victim, the muslims; though not all fall into the radical sphere. The more radical would claim that being against Islam is racial, I disagree as a Morrocan (north African Arab, possibly a Semite) is obviously vey different proposition to a Philipino (Oriental). The only commonality is their faith, the same could be said for an American Christian or a Russian Orthodox Christian, they have the same God but they are very diffent people.

On to Nicolas Annelka and his gesture. In my opinion, which doesn't count for much, Annelka did what he did because he is an idiot. Perhaps he was looking to cause trouble; which he has eventually done, as people have had to research his gesture. Although he has chosen the wrong arena as Britain was, generally, unaware of this gesture - certainly I did not know such a thing existed before he did it. Would he have done it in France where the meaning would have been immediately obvious? I don't know, but I doubt it. If he had been a white footballer making a derogatory gesture against a larger minority group he would have been quite rightly ostracised and punished very quickly, because he is black and offending another, even smaller group, he will most likely get away with it. If on the other hand he knew what he was doing and the gesture was a completely calculated act he deserves to be suspended from the game for a very long time.

Britain is a tolerant society, too tolerant sometimes, but there are limits to appropriate behaviour and it seems to me in this case Britain in the actions of Annelka and the FA in their response (or lack of it) are going to be too tolerant and we are in danger of returning to the days of Daniel Deronda and the "dirty Jew", something that is not wanted.

 

Imagine there's no heaven
It's easy if you try
No hell below us
Above us only sky
Imagine all the people
Living for today...

Imagine there's no countries
It isn't hard to do
Nothing to kill or die for
And no religion too
Imagine all the people
Living life in peace...

You may say I'm a dreamer
But I'm not the only one
I hope someday you'll join us
And the world will be as one

I reckon someone ought to write a song about how we can all get along irrespective of religion, nationality, colour, orientation etc....

 

Dieudonné was arrested last night after a complaint was lodged against him by a huissier de justice or bailiff who alleged assault when he visited his home to collect a debt. It would seem that when the man arrived he had rubber bullets fired at him.

The artist owes over €65 000 fines for convictions for anti-Semitic remarks. Dieudonné regularly calls for donations in the form of videos for help to pay his fines or, like last year, for help to buy his house.

He often claims that he is anti-establishment, but on a number of occasions has attempted to join it as in 2002 and 2007 when he was a candidate in the French presidential election and the 2009 European Parliament election. With these attempts to get his views heard he has been supported by a number of well known Holocaust deniers.

He is due to appear in Limoges this weekend for a show, but the one he intended to perform has been banned and he is putting something else on.

I agree that Anelka is an idiot. Certainly if he had performed his gesture on a football pitch here he would have been sacked without much time to say that he had been misunderstood. The big problem here is that with a discredited government and financial woes, extremists both left and right are being seen by sections of the population as a possible way out.

 

What we need is a Great Big Melting Pot......

 

Great post Zen, thank you. So many good points.

 

I see your point HH, thank you. Slightly off topic i guess but the origins of the Y word go back to Spurs v Arsenal when both sides used it for the other. Arsenal dropped it, maybe because they realised it was offensive, though i'm not sure...but Spurs fans stuck with it..a kind of defence mechanism. To a lot of Jewish Spurs fans it is acceptable, but only to them...i knew very few Jewish people outside of Spurs who don't mind it. West Ham and Arsenal both have large Jewish followings, we don't hear them using offensive words to describe themselves. Maybe i'm over sensitive to it, i won't deny that it really upsets me, but i just don't understand how it's acceptable if it offends even just one person.