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Will Pozzo plan work?

Discussion in 'Watford' started by Leo, Dec 28, 2014.

  1. Leo

    Leo Well-Known Member

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    I am not sure it will.

    We have an excellent squad of players - on paper at least - and yet the performances just do not reflect that. Given the quality and the prize of a place in perhaps the best league in the world you would not expect a manager to have to do much motivation and yet match after match it seems many of the players simply do not turn up for perhaps half the match. When they do and can be bothered we look pretty good.

    I have always believed that the Manager is equal to about 50% of the "team". If you look around, certain managers in certain divisions can perform miracles with squads of players who are often just journeymen. With no disrespect to Bournemouth, take away Eddie Howe and do you expect them to stay top. I could be made to eat my words later today but look at what Russell Slade is already achieving at Cardiff and what has happened to Orient since he left.

    The Pozzo method seems to require a continental approach to managership here and I am not sure it works. I said I was not impressed by Jokavich's CV when he arrived - I believe first he inherited a winning team and did well with it and then he achieved one year's success in a football backwater in Asia. The rest of his CV is dreary. I think McKinlay looked a far more interesting prospect. I cannot see any point in sacking Jokavich (unless such a terrible run of defeats makes it inevitable) so we are now stuck with him at least for the remainder of this season. Do I think he is an out and out winner - certainly not. We can get to the play-offs in spite of him, not thanks to him, due to a good squad but it will seem accidental.

    I confess I do not have the answer as to how to combine the Pozzo ability to find and supply decent players with the managerial nous required to get the best out of them.

    I am not unhappy. A good Championship Watford suits me fine. We are a small club with a crowd potential no better than lower Championship levels and for us to entertain dreams of play offs and the occasional foray into the Premiership is a plus. Of course I would love to see us go up and be a Wigan or Wimbledon for several years but that needs the right ingredients to come together and I am not convinced the Pozzos know how to do that. They appear to use more of a scattergun appproach. Try loads of players and managers and hopefully it will come together at some stage.

    I am sure though that this is not what the Pozzos have in mind - they are not interested in simply a good Champiionship club.
     
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  2. colognehornet

    colognehornet Well-Known Member

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    In my opinion we need a manager with a hands on role in player recruitment like all the other clubs in this league - rather than a head coach who makes the best with what he has. Sad now to imagine what might have happened if SD had stayed with just a little financial security in the background. The scattergun approach does not work in this league and my worry is that our present structure is preventing good 'home grown' players from coming to the club (heaven knows where the next legend is coming from !) - I would very much like to know the real reasons behind Gibbsy's decision not to come here. Another problem is that the Pozzo's have employed Spanish managers (apart from one) at Granada - so why the different policy with us ? Or are they demonstrating a deep lack of respect for English football which will eventually backfire on them. Most of the players from the Pozzo pool are not good enough (or are we forgetting that they are all either promising youngsters or were unable to command a first team place at Udinese) a club in the lower half of what is now only the 4th strongest league in Europe. We are taking the cast offs from a club who themselves would not survive in the Premiership, but the positive side is that we now have a 4 sided stadium and financial security - and, the value of the club must have increased under the Pozzos. Like you Leo I would accept being a Championship side over the long term (when I became a fan we were in the old 3rd div.) - but I would rather do it with home grown players who knew were Watford was before they signed, and with players who do not freeze in shock as soon as they either come up against a well organized ream, or are required to play on a cold wet night in Barnsley or somewhere.
     
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  3. yorkshirehornet

    yorkshirehornet Well-Known Member

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    I now have little confidence in the present head coach.... sadly..... and I have always been loyal to managers long after many have called for them to go. I think the Pozzos have got it wrong and continue to do so..

    The team is clearly affected and we are now starting to underperform. Worrying mid table obscurity looms with Troy and others leaving....
     
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  4. Hornet-Fez

    Hornet-Fez Well-Known Member

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    Care to rephrase? Not having seen today's match but having attended the dross dished up on Boxing Day we certainly seem to suffer from stage fright at The Vic, nobody wants to take responsibility going forward from the back so we go side ways or backwards. Gomes is a weak kicker (compare Schmeichel) the ball hangs inviting defenders onto it.

    The midfield is invariably snuffed out and as a result we are impotent in attack because the head (Deeney/Vydra) are effectively cut off. Away from home our set up works because the home team is expected to take the game to the opposition, leaving us opportunity to get in behind, which we're rarely afforded at home.

    Obviously things are still not anywhere near right but if we're scoring four or five goals away and being shut out at home it really ought not to be that difficult to fix. Jokanovic does not have his own staff behind him either, that won't help along with the language problems, perceived or otherwise, he has not inherited an ideal situation. I think the Pozzo's are caught between a rock and a hard place this season, not entirely of their own doing nor are they entirely blameless. Given all the good stuff going on they're still way way way in credit in my book.
     
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  5. aberdeenhornet

    aberdeenhornet Well-Known Member

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    Yes it will work. The problem is our perception of how good we are and our unreal expectations, no we haven't performed to the sum of the parts yet but it will happen.
     
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  6. yorkshirehornet

    yorkshirehornet Well-Known Member

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    Yes will revise......

    It worked out for us today...

    time will tell.... at the moment I wonder if we have got it right as a team... and 5 defeats with a new manager when we were top is very hard to accept...
     
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  7. Leo

    Leo Well-Known Member

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    Good to see there is general optimism. Remember the Pozzo plan is to put us in the Premiership- not just to be a good Championship side. I am happy with the latter although obviously I have enjoyed our forays into the Prem but I am sure the Pozzos will not accept that.

    At the moment I am struggling to see how they are going to get the right balance of a large squad and a manager who does not know the Championship. Constant changing of managers is not likely to succeed.
     
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  8. yorkshirehornet

    yorkshirehornet Well-Known Member

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    I think we have a half decent squad now with some strength in depth.

    Even players like Dyer I rate.....


    But we have to mould as a squad.....
     
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  9. J T Bodbo

    J T Bodbo Well-Known Member

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    What a complete load of tosh. In Dec we have 12 points from 5 games. Repeat that and why not - we'll get stronger as season goes on, as our squad will show it can interchange successfully - we could end up with 90 points! Ok not likely, but by not impossible. If we get 2 points per game for remaining 22 that makes 85.
    We have an excellent head coach who talks sense, (even if he is a bit lugubrious) and understands how to manage a European squad - which is what we have. All this twaddle about an 'english coach' makes me really cross. Xenophobes ! If our squad was stuffed full of UK players then maybe an English coach would work. Look at top sides in Prem - Chelski, Man city, Manure, Soton, Arsenal,Spurs. English managers? English squads ? We may not like it, but that is how it is.
    The Pozzo's plan is to get into AND STAY IN the premiership - let's applaud the ambition - not fret about whether it's English enough.
    Two other points
    1)We need enough players so that a winning formation can be repeated with other players when necessary
    2) We need enough players to change the formation when other sides come with a plan to nullify our normal setup.
     
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  10. Leo

    Leo Well-Known Member

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    The only tosh I have read on this thread is your post Bodbo.
    You selectively pick the last five games with 12 points - ignoring the 4 defeats that preceded it - any fool can play selectively with statistics. On recent performances we are not consistent enough to predict even a single game ahead (look at the prediction league) let alone the rest of the season.
    We may have a European squad - which apparently you think Jokavich knows how to manage from his one European club management - but we play in an English league and many foreign coaches have been sucessful until they come here.
    Can you point me to "all this twaddle about an English coach" - I seem to have missed it and thought the comments were about the Championship and knowledge of it. Has anybody on here complained about the nationality of any player or manager? Seems the only xenophobic comment comes from you. The rest of us do not care about nationality but about experience in the league where we play.
    Do you seriously think it is viable to compare top Premiership clubs, styles and coaching which has a very European influence at many clubs who play there with the Championship?

    I think we all applaud and support the Pozzos. Try reading what the thread is about before you jump in two footed with your inaccurate comments.

    The question is whether the Pozzo style will achieve what THEY want. If you think it will then instead of criticising a whole discussion try to inform us with your wisdom why so far their choice of managers appears not to have achieved their Plan.
     
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  11. colognehornet

    colognehornet Well-Known Member

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    W
    We are not Chelski, Man City or Arsenal ! Had I wanted to support a glamour club I could have done so but I decided to support my home town club. I do not think it is xenophobic to have reservations about a starting XI which contains not one player who would be eligible to play for England, and has no connection to the town or area, or any other emotional connection outside of a large pay packet. My worry is that with the constant changing of both international playing staff and international coaching staff where will the next local product come from - where will the next club legend ( the Luther, or the Tommy Mooney or the Tommy Smith) come from ?
     
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    Last edited: Dec 29, 2014
  12. J T Bodbo

    J T Bodbo Well-Known Member

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    Interesting responses. My first post was in response to all that had gone before - not the original post. Likewise this - my last word on this thread.
    If you read 'The Secret footballer' you will see that the vast majority of footballers couldn't care less where they play or for whom - as long as they are maximising their opportunities. Like most of us in most of our careers I expect. To suggest that it is only foreign players who think like that is mistaken.Equally, some foreign players seem to care more for their UK club than the local players do. A couple of recent examples - Heidar Helguson - at WFC & Juninho at Middlesborough. And contrariwise , Mike Williamson (born Stoke on trent) just used us as a stepping stone to somewhere else. (signed 3 1/2 year contract - stayed 8 months).
    Anyway, that misses my point. There is no reason why the Pozzo model shouldn't work just because this is England and we are not continental which is the impression the original post seems to give. In fact their model is more likely to produce success since it requires less of a miracle worker (and reduces the difficulty of finding one) as a head coach.
    What is more, if we get promoted, I think the Pozzo model will serve us better than the desperate performances of a group of journeymen, however much they are motivated. All of us admire Sean Dyche for what he has achieved, and the way he has created an effective team very much in the English mould.
    We'll see at the end of the season whether it works.

    I think the reality of our (i.e. Championship) football is that it is moving down from the premiership to be more 'continental' where effort is less of a factor than skill and organisation and implementation of a plan. I'm not sure it is very popular in our league, esp. when it doesn't work, as we complain about players not looking 'interested' even when the team is winning. But that is what is happening. So I think the pozzo model is ahead of the game. It also seems to me that a lot of our supporters despise the Premier league with all its bling and money and selfishness (e.g. lack of equitable distribution of money etc etc). Curious though that the clubs we support are all desperately striving to get there! Are we, the supporters ?

    Regarding statistics - I agree that my choice appears too selective. But how much of the previous 4 losses was down to the head coach, and the 4 wins out of 5 was not down to the head coach ? All I was suggesting was that we have a squad built for a whole season, and it will get stronger. All teams seem to have bad spells - usually ours is in March, just when we don't need it! Perhaps ours has now been and gone.
    One other point about performances. Apart from norwich (0-3 due to exceptional circumstances) we haven't lost ANY league game by more than 1 goal. I think that shows we are in a good place to expect a strong 2nd half to the season.

    Regarding legends..
    How many of us actually care where our next 'legend' comes from and anyway, what are the qualifications. Longevity seems to be key, which perhaps means they weren't good enough to go somewhere better. (Unnecessarily sour comment). I might have thought Paul robinson was a legend, until I saw him break someone's leg at port vale. I always thought cliff holton was a legend but he only spent 3 Legend forming seasons with us. Born in oxford, came from Arsenal, went to northampton. Perhaps we could call him a legend since by moving to charlton we got Stewart scullion ? If Deeney gets 20 goals this season, he will be a legend. Well he should be, 'cos he will be the first WFC player to get 20 goals in 3 consecutive seasons.

    In summary, I only wanted to say I think the pozzo model can work, is working, and is more likely to achieve a stable rise in the clubs fortunes.
     
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  13. Leo

    Leo Well-Known Member

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    Funny - had your first post been as good as this I would have enjoyed reading it - good points well made and worth debating but as you do not intend to post again on this thread I guess any comments I now have are redundant. Good to see you return to your normal high level of posting Bodbo
     
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  14. oldfrenchhorn

    oldfrenchhorn Well-Known Member
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    I remember when the club had a policy of looking in depth into a players character as well as his ability on the pitch. Apart from Mo Johnson I cannot think of too many players who were a trouble to the club. With the talk of dressing room unrest coming out from time to time, can it be that the Pozzo model is based more on obtaining the services of a player who they believe in time will make progress and earn them a transfer profit? If you sign players to a small club they do need to fit in with the coaches, other players and even connect with the fans.

    The Pozzo record over many years doesn't seem to have taken into account this aspect of the players commitment to the team that they own. Sign players and coaches, see if they perform, keep them if they do, get rid of them if they don't. If you look at Granada they took time to get them to the top league. Different country to their experience and they had to adapt. I would like to believe that they still believe that they are learning about the Championship.

    I think that the experienced Championship manager argument is a bit of a red herring. There is no telling if one could communicate with the players, not simply on the speech aspect, but asking them to do something that they have not been bought to do. Is there a formula for winning promotion? I don't think so, the nearest I can come to is a manager who bonds very well with a small squad of players, and is lucky enough for them to stay fit.

    Will the plan work was the original question. I think it will, but I would not know when. It almost did with GFZ, but from the fans viewpoint we have struggled since he somehow lost the plot. I think that the heady days when all was going so well with the little man have raised expectations to an unsustainable height. One day we will get promotion, but probably without the flair and excitement that we witnessed in that first season of the Pozzo family.
     
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  15. aberdeenhornet

    aberdeenhornet Well-Known Member

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    What I think is telling is our current position in the league despite not firing on all cylinders. The strength in depth is there to push on to auto before the end of the season, we still haven't had our purple patch. I think the model is working. The model also calls for an assistant head coach with Championship experience, an element our friends hacven't yet secured but I'm sure they will. Like everything it all takes time but in the background is a strong football based plan, not health campus, not building flats, its football based. This is a model I like. I still want to see the core of the team as a committed long term group, I feel guys like Deeney, Fezza, Doy;ey obviously fit this mould and doesn't matter where they come from they give 100% to the cause and believe in the club until they drop. I think we'll see success this year in terms of promotion but still crave the ZolaCoaster and the little mans flair, personality just fun that is difficult to recreate. We were spoiled by GT and GFZ....
     
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  16. Leo

    Leo Well-Known Member

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    Bodbo - I thought you were not going to discuss the Pozzo plan any more - but as you have raised it on the Layun thread I have responded there
     
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  17. J T Bodbo

    J T Bodbo Well-Known Member

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    Well, back here again, thinking about the model, where I should have kept it ! Sorry, I just got over excited about Layun! I see Derby are strengthening significantly, and it seems we can too. Seems clear that Pozzos are definitely going for it. One aspect of the model not yet examined is the academy step up. Our academy is legendary, , certainly the hare field link is special, even Cruyff said it was better than in Holland, but as of now we only have Hoban getting on the pitch. Agreed that several youngsters have contracts, and are doing ok when out on loan, but we do need to see at least 2 playing regularly to persuade me the Pozzos are committed. Perhaps it's just timing, or the energy is so focused on promotion, that eliminating risk is required. Keeping the Obi (?) youngster does show real intent, which is good. Murray seems to be on the bench to fulfil quota. Is that fair comment ? Is it fair on him ?
    1 additional (what, another?) thought. Naming the stands does show great respect for our clubs history & achievements. Very good sign.
    It's clear I believe in the model, but more, I believe in the Pozzos. Definitely best owners since s
     
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  18. Leo

    Leo Well-Known Member

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    I think the Pozzos are the best thing to happen to Watford since EJ/GT.

    The Ground - tick
    Financial - tick
    Long term commitment - tick
    Squad - tick
    Academy - tick
    Respect for history - tick
    Managers - question mark
     
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  19. Leo

    Leo Well-Known Member

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    On managers - although sorry for Dyche I accepted from the start that he was not a suitable fit for what they wanted to do and they were right to bring in their own man. My problem though is that, Zola apart, I have not been impressed with their choice of managers. Sannino did better than I expected but when you have excellent players it is difficult to do too badly. He should have gone at the close of last season as I argued at the time. He was not a winner. Garcia looked to be a good choice but we will never know. McKinlay was an embarrassing foul up - he should have been caretaker or left in place. Jokavich could end up OK but was he really the best they could have appointed?

    Bodbo - you seem to believe that it is more important to have a manager who understands the European style of management - a fair point when you have a European set up and many foreign players. However I see promotion from the Championship more often being achieved by old experienced Championship work horses like Holloway, Bruce, Pearson, Redknapp, Dowie, Warnock. I am not sure I want any of these but they seem to know how to get clubs up. If the Pozzos want us in the Prem perhaps they need to consider a Plan B that uses that type of manager. The trouble is that if they did they might also need to consider what players these managers could manage.

    In the Pozzos shoes, I would not change anything at the moment. I am optimistic we will reach the play offs at least. I agree the Pozzos will not settle for good Championship football - they are a rare breed - businessmen first and foremost who realise the riches lie in the Prem, but they also have an excellent football pedigree. I am hoping that SJ is a fast learner. He needs to be as we must become more consistent - we cannot lose four, win three, lose at home to a struggling Wolves and then win at a team that beat us a month or so earlier at the Vic. Consistency and an ability to not lose is vital. We must also be better at responding when we go behind - and indeed maintaining a high tempo for more than half a match.

    I return to my question though and am still uncertain. Until we have a settled management team I think we could struggle. It is a shame Gibbs did not join us as he would have brought vast "local" knowledge. I have an uncomfortable feeling that we may be destined to be more often the bridesmaid rather than the bride.
     
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  20. Hornette_TID

    Hornette_TID Well-Known Member
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    i don't worry about the manager. To be honest, i think he's finding his feet and sifting out the dross. After the transfer window i truly believe we will have a team that he has managed to galvanise and he will make the Pozzos very happy. There is still a bit of negativity within the squad, i think those players will be gone very shortly. Joka wants to surround himself with players who are hungry to play for the team, he seems a strong enough person to do it. Keeping the faith :)

    Agree about Gibbs Leonardo, but if he doesn't want to come, i won't weep. Hopefully they will find another Englishman who is keen to work within the model and help get us where the Pozzos want us to be.

    Thinking about it, i'm dubious about the prem. It's great getting there, but it's a struggle to stay there, and i love the championship! it's exciting, unpredictable, and affordable! Ah well, i won't complain if we go up either, but i won't be going to every game sadly!
     
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