As we all know, our attacking fortunes this season have come at a cost. Our back 4 (or 3... or 5...) have let in a significant amount of goals in comparison to other teams around us. It may or may not have cost us the title, but in the least it needs to be investigated and addressed. What do you fellas think we should be doing? Personally, I think we have to look at Skrtel as the weak link that should be benched. He plays well with Agger, but only if the players ahead of him are focused. If I were Brendan, I would pair up Sakho and Agger. They need to find a rythm. With games comes understanding and that should be enough to make them play a bit better. We don't have an established pairing yet which is alarming given that it's been a full season without two defenders making an obvious partnership. The one that we haven't tried often is the one with our two best defenders (on paper) but since they're both left footed some people don't think they can play together. For me it's a bit ridiculous because no one makes a scene when both are right-footed, so why is the leftie argument valid? As poor as Skrtel has been I feel that he isn't the main reason for our problems. The biggest one is that the defence has been left stranded by 2 things. First, Gerrard playing in a holding role is useless as a defensive outlet - players simply move around him and it isn't hard. He's doing great from there in terms of assists and creativity, but the defensive rigidity that Lucas used to provide is long gone. Lucas, when playing as a solitary DM had the freedom to run and stop attacks before they started. When the front 5 ahead of him pressed properly, all he had to do 75% of the time was make a single tackle and muscle the attacker off to the side - allowing for the front 5 to run back and stop the counter. This season, Gerrard doesn't do that. Play bypasses him easily because he isn't a defensive midfielder by nature and never was. With our attacking play, the front 5 don't press enough to give Gerrard time to position himself and as a result, our defence has to deal with so much more than they're used to. When Lucas is subbed in, he's less effective than he was because of the lack of pressing in the attacking end. More comes at him and he hasn't had the playing time to re-adjust to the new style. The second thing that affected our defenders was the lack of fullback cover. The 4-4-2 diamond and the 4-3-3 that we played this season require a trio of central midfielders to provide strength in numbers and allow for a passing game. The width has to come from the fullbacks, which is risky when those fullbacks are Johnson who is naturally lazy and Flanagan who isn't pacey enough to track back on time. By running forward they expose our flanks and make problem number 1 worse. Thoughts? Should we switch to a pressing game in the opponents half (like Barcelona) or should we simply replace the personel that we have?
Skrtel has been poor? Really...? I was his biggest critic at the start of the season but he's been brilliant this year IMO. I think he's been back to how he was when he won POTY a couple of seasons back and only Suarez, Gerrard, Henderson and possibly Sterling have been better than Martin this year. However, that is not to say I think Skrtel is the future. I think we could do better but I don't expect him to replaced by the start of next season. A good defence is built on consistency. Take Skrtel out of the equation and we may as well be starting from scratch as Sakho as not taken control. If Agger stays in there then fair enough but that means Sakho is benched. IMO, Skrtel should remain for now whilst we find that dominant and commanding CB that will be our leader in the back line for the next few years, once that player sis found we move on. On the suggestion of Agger and Sakho; I don't go along with this "must not play two left footers together" bull. There have been many CB pairings that were two right footed players, why not left footers? The reason I would object to this pairing is because they are both reactive defenders. Neither of them attack the ball, they sit and wait to see what happens before attempting to stop the attack. Skrtel is the only one we have that attacks the ball before the attacker has chance to do anything. I agree about the DM position. The biggest problem with our defence as been the lack of protection. Don't get me wrong, Gerrard has been superb but he is not as mobile a player as we require with the system we play. We need a Mascherano type player but where do we find that? I said in a thread yesterday that I think Javier was (past tense because he plays CB nowadays) the best out and out DM there has been. Pace, acceleration, strength, tackling, covering, engine and reading of the game were his key attributes, all perfect for a DM. The only criticism I'd have is his passing could have been better. As regards the 433 and FB cover, getting the DM would help but ultimately we need four FBs. Two defensive minded FBs (aka Finnan, Arbeloa, etc) and two attacking FBs (aka Johnson, Riise, etc). this gives us squad options. If we are up against a better side we use the first set, when playing a lesser team use the latters.
Agger's our only calm intelligent pro of a defender Sakho's leggy Skrtel and Sakho are anxious Skrtel and Sakho lunge dangerously and naively out of position Flanagan's lack of pace Johnson goes up too often. Bad especially when Sterling is played centrally and doesn't overlap with him. Sterling's talent is wasted if not on the wings. He also can help the FB defensively and offensively from there. When we sit back, if we decide so, we need to do so as a team, and this is practiced on the training pitch. In general, if defensive schemes were better and more often practiced, we'd get more assured and calmer at defending. Gerrard and Lucas make a bad slow combo in midfield lacking. Gerrard at DM (face it, BR ain't moving him) is best complemented by 2 midfielders either side of him who press and tackle and don't get stranded upfield. Any 2 of Hendo, Allen, Coutinho should be able to do that
Agreed with pretty much everything. That being said Sakho is leggy because of his physique and having not been played so much in the past few years at PSG. With a season under his belt he will come good next season. He's intelligent and you can see him thinking about the ball when he has it. This is dangerous with Skrtel in the side because indecision plays them into danger. At this point Allen has to be benched. He's done okay but okay is NOT enough anymore. Champions league standard or this isn't the place. He will be mid-20's next season. Rapid growth isn't likely anymore. And Gerrez, I think Skrtel has played more and made more spectacular plays. He's scored a bunch but this just papers over a problem with him. Look at Palace's third goal where the ball basically bounces over him. He's out of position, but he's great at scrambling back 9/10 times to prevent it. Unfortunately that one time is enough for a goal. He's a good defender and I don't want to sell him. But for a partnership you need to have trust in your partner. Calm-headedness is better for this. Skrtel should be here next season but should he be first choice? In my opinion no. All 3 can rotate with Ilori getting Toure's minutes. Then again what do I know? Rodgers has been improving from day one.
No no no If played PROPERLY the system is fine For the past 2.5 games Gerard's refused to stand in his position and has been getting ahead of the ball constantly, Johnson does want to chase back and bless him Flanagan is a piss poor option on the left so every ball goes side right.... If we have a defecto back 3 break away goals should not occur However there is an issue not with Skertl but with mingolet. The lad is simply ROOTED to his goal line and a flapper at this point, great shot stopper but f me.... He can't kick, come out or catch.... We have to see that surely? A sweeper keeper who'll come out and just deal with **** is what we need badly Skertl is fine attacking the ball but it all breaks down when only half the team are maintaining shape.... Eh where the f was the midfield v palace when Skertl rush out to try to head a ball that he should never have gone for.... His og yesterday was down to Gerrard not committing immediately to cover the run in the channel but to look at the ball, why was it him in that channel and not Henderson? Why did we chase the game v Chelsea when a draw would have done? Mourinho in Rodgers position would play for 0-0, get it and win the title, it was just niavity IMO but at least we can say we play fair right? When palace broke from that attacking set piece why was the guy breaking not pulled over in his own half before the play developed? Why did Flanagan not mark the one guy in the box but let him run six yards off him instead covering behind Skertl in case he got beat? It's all about collective professionalism, decision making and discipline.... Play your role, trust others, don't shrink your duty and foul for god sake, defending frees is easier than last ditch crap in the box!
I am willing to bet we can defend a LOT better than most think. F sake when we've been ordered to dig in we can. simple as that, rodgers called it concentration . i feel its decision making but also shirking in getting back at times. frankly if mr pulis can say that he joined palace and not one set piece gaol went in til allen scored off lucas fouling his marker then anyone can set up a defence to just defend. We can when ordered pull the full backs heads in and defend. we can be that bad if we can go beat city 2-0 at home but then just go play stupidly v a stoke or palace. its all in the head, and I think its not all about scoring and going forward. if rodgers felt like it he coudl take 30 goals off our tally next year and solve it. seems to me 90% of the time we play more consistently v the big sides and that indicates where the problem lies. we don't need 4 new defenders.... (well i think we need new full backs to get up AND back) but we do need to iron out undesirable traits. for example I would be more than happy seeing a coutinho and sterling type player on attacking corners told to pull down anyone breaking on us... I see cheslea at it constantly
say what!!! where the **** did i say we need 4 new defenders, i said our defence was better at scoring than defending, what part of that is not true?
It's easy to blame defenders but our system leaves them exposed, the all out attack that we play is great and pushes teams back but when we lose the ball we have to defend collectivley and at times our desire to win the ball back has been lacking. I would like us to buy that organiser/leader at the back and I think that a new Hyypia/Carragher type character will improve our back 4 but imo our frailties are down to the whole team and not just our defenders.
Most league winner built a team from the back. I think we built our team from the front last season. Oh dear oh dear very costly.
i was exaggerating... based on what everyone else is saying here apparently the only way to get out if this is to buy buy buy. i was king of making the point that if all they are good for is scoring not defending that means the same thing. I agree with Luv here. we are too naive in attacking and basically players go awol.. at time for example v newcastel you could see gerrard just bascially abdicating his new role totally and when agger strode up gerrard never dropped back in and if that lot were any good we'd have been creamed. we push too many bodies forward unnecessarily and sometimes its better to have a player to pass to who's goal side than having players getting in front of the ball and blocking spaces others more able can make runs in. I honestly think putting a vincent kompany type in at the back would not solve this... mingolet needs to learn how to come out and play sweeper. he is absolutely rooted. Others making the point on gerrard are right in that while in possession playing regista is great he's not got any legs to do the screening when not on the ball so we need henderson or the like to double pivot and sit in there.... flanagan is creating a scenario where every pass we make is to the right then johnosn back passes... we need genuine legs on both sides to make the system work. All in all we we try i will bet we can defend properly without issue. but we just seem to lose shape and discipline and also fade. If we at 3-1 v palace pulled the full backs heads in and had sat lucas and gerrard in front we'd have shut that game down totally... why didn't we? why didn't we foul the guy breaking off the corner by pulling him back? its simple stuff that other sides do easily... no amount of new players will fix that... but do we knock 30 goals off the tally to take 15 off the goals against?
I never take goal scoring exploits into consideration when judging a defender, that's not why they are there, anything in the department is a bonus.
depends on the points gained part from doing that obviously, if we take those goals off the score lines we have had of 4-0 5-0 etc then yes obviously. think we need to realize when we have games where a point is a bonus and not just constant attack against teams, fine line between getting it right and wrong though ie arsenal and chelsea results, we all know we wanted brendan to play the same way we did against arsenal , but it didn't work, if it had, he would have been a genius rather than the naive, i and maybe a few others, have called him, as a draw was all that was needed at the time. tactics is another ie palace game, why when we was 3-0 up did we not then turn into the counter attacking team? easy to say after the result, but it was obvious it was what was needed rather than chasing an impossible goals deficit. just hope these decisions are put right next season and we finish the job properly
well.... 4-0s are one thing.. its 5-3 or 6-3 resutls that could have been 2-0s that you wonder about but really I was thinking.. newcastle 2-2, villa 2-2 and palace 3-3 are the games where i was thinking it cost us in only. any others?? arsenal were just the better side all round at their place in fairness. V cheslea fine we went at them for 30mins. perhaps had we have gone in at half time 0-0 we might have defended second half or mourinho might have sent them out to attack more.... bu ti just think we'd have sent more and more forwards anyway and given them hope on the counter as we were so focused on the win we were desperate for rather than being clam and controlled. By all means try to win the game but trying stuff like you are 2 down on away goals in the last ten is not the way naive is about the team as a whole rather than rodgers but he is a part of it. I think at 3-0 v palace there was no issue of coutner attacking. that was at 3-1 or whatever. palace were dead and not trying. they got a little uck form johnson turning he fat ass on a shot and getting the deflection but after that we should have killed it.
This isn't about our back four/five. It's about the balance of the team as a whole. If we are going to pile forward and lose the ball in dangerous areas, then we cannot blame our CB's for being exposed.....although at times, Toure looked exposed when he had the ball! City scored more than us and conceded a lot less so it's not about sacrificing good football. Perhaps Rodgers doesn't feel that we have the right players to have that balance yet so will be very interesting who tops the transfer wish list this year. I agree with the comments about Mignolet, he's a great shot stopper but at times it looks like he's taken root! I hope he works on this over the coming season.
Blaming the system is naive IMO. The system isn't the cause of full backs failing to close down wingers and preventing crosses. Nor is it at fault for Skrtel to step out at the wrong time, over and over again and get caught out. The system isn't at fault for players not marking the attackers. And the system isn't at fault for our DM being too slow to track his runners coming into the box. For me, it's the personnel that is the problem. Some will argue that an overhaul will only disrupt the team and cause issues - no it won't because the defence did sod all in us getting us to 2nd in the league. 2 new full backs needed - players who can actually keep the ball and defend first and foremost. Srktel is extremely poor - he has improved and he has scored some important goals but this just masks his ineffeciences. It was well documented how the team dropped back when we concede goals which only invites more pressure. Well, Mr Skrtel, as the senior man of the defence, shouldn't you be organising your troops? Fact is, he's not a leader and he needs babysitting. Agger is the real leader of the defence but Rodgers did the right thing in trying to phase him out in favour of Sakho. Unfortunately, it means that Skrtel doesn't have anyone to tell him how to defend. We should have tried Toure and Sakho IMO - both French speaking which would have helped Sakho. And Toure has received a lot of stick because of some gaffes - he was playing at LCB which is an unfamiliar role to him and it shows that you can't just expect defenders to switch sides (for those who think Sakho and Agger should play together). You;re right in that there are a lot of partnerships involving 2 right footed players but the player on the left side has probably been playing that position all their career. Sakho and Agger are both natural LCB's, and I'm using the Toure example to highlight just how difficult it is for players to switch.
This^ Before jumping all over individual performances of defenders, look at how the team is set up- to attack- and compare it with a defensive team like Chelsea. I've said this so many times already I can't be bothered going into detail over it again. When we lose the ball, we don't get the shape in front of the keeper anything like as fast as we should, and this is down to the midfield as much as the defence. The only defender who has been consistently poor- in that I've lost all faith and hope of improvement in him- is Johnson. Of course, the others have limitations and can be improved upon, but it doesn't matter who we have in their place, they'd still ship goals if they're constantly exposed. And Skrtel the weak point? I must be watching a different Liverpool. Really, he has his faults but if he's the weak point then there must be something I'm missing with the others.
Agree, Saint. Although he's scored a lot of own goals this season, he's been the only defender I've been happy with, defensively, this season. Also, if you use the player comparison tool on the lfc website you'll see he compares favourably (better than nearly all of them!) to the best CBs this year. This backs up what I've seen of him, as he's definitely been one of our better players.
