Realistically where did people expect us to finish this season? We dont spend ridiculous money, lots of our players have worked their way through the leagues and our wage budget is low. Staying up this season would be a huge achievement. Currently as things stand we would stay up, maybe its not always pretty but surely it is more important to stay up than play pretty football and go down? We have to be realistic, we are not a massive club and currently (even if some dont see it atm) we are progressing. Stadium expansion, increased revenue etc. If we stay up and yes it is a big if. We have every reason to be optimistic. Not only new improved signings (on paper at least) but the increased money will be huge. I personally hate it, but like it or not finances play a huge role in a clubs successes. Although QPR have shown its not the be all and end all. I'd like to take the positives of what CH has done. We are better defensively. Possibly at the detriment to attack but we are now very organised in defence, something we have not been in the past but is crucial to long term success. Maybe people dont find defending good to watch these days but it is still a crucial and underrated part of the game as all people want to see is goals. If we stay up we have a good base on which to build. The defence is not perfect but still pretty good. If over the summer we can develop the attack in the same way we then start to look a very decent side. It cant be done over night making us an attacking attractive team as some seem to suggest, but over the summer with a couple of aditions Im sure this will be addressed. Lets be fair to CH his signings have been pretty good for the most part. So CH has possibly succeeded in one part of the formula, the defence. Maybe not the pretty part but important all the same. Hopefully we will stay up and then he will be able to complete it and we will look a very decent team.
I certainly expected us to struggle this season and before the season started I would have predicted us to be in a similar position to what we find ourselves in now. What is disappointing though, is how easily we could have avoided this. When you have amassed 25 points by the 14th December, it really should not be a struggle from there to stay in the division.
Lots of ifs and buts. If you see having goals against at -22 as better defensively is an improvement not sure I can agree with you. If we do stay up there needs to be massive improvements throughout the squad and I would say defensively also. The only thing Chris Hughton has suceeded doing is taking us to the brink of relegation. How can any of that be seen as successful? Two wins in 19 games would not be tolerated at any other club. Now if we do survive, I am sure he will still be given a chance, but he needs to majorly look at his tactics, the players ...etc and sort it out otherwise he will be out early doors.
Take a look at this table, ranked by squad worth. I know the players aren't everything, but a good manager can only do so much. Of the teams currently flirting with relegation, we're the only ones who are actually higher in the league than our players are 'worth' (19th). Newcastle have the 7th most expensive squad, then Sunderland (9th), Villa (11th), Stoke (12th). Wigan are exactly where they 'should' be, 18th. When CH says our players aren't good enough, sure it isn't great man-management, but you'd have to say he's right. Factor in a missing first choice keeper, and the failure to sign a decent striker in January (which isn't all down to him, the club could have pushed the boat out further but decided it wasn't needed) and there's a strong case for saying he's done better with this crop than an 'average' manager would have done. I peronally felt that this season was going to be a struggle, certainly Lambert did as he found Villa a more attractive proposition. If at the start of the season you'd have offered me the chance to win at home to West Brom to secure our safety on the penultimate day of the season, I'd have probably taken that.
I agree most of it relies on us staying up. I know our GD is not good but for the most part other than a few heavy defeats the defence has been much better organised and we have defended better as a team. Also GD is bad as we have not scored many ourselves. You cant know for sure but I can see the merit of what CH has done. You could say it is quite old fashioned building from the the back but it is important if not pretty. Im hoping next season he will develop the attack in the way he has developed the defence. I know we cant say for sure he will do this but if he does we will have a very good team.
Sorry, Tipsy, but I really believe all this 'strengthening the defence' is a fallacy. Last year we had (for large parts) Ward and Whitbred with the fairly creative David Fox in front of them. This season, they've had the perceived "benefit" of two holding mids who dare not cross the halfway line as minders and we're still on -22. As Carrabuh said recently Hughton has improved the calibre of the personnel in defence plus the number deployed there - but we're still pretty porous
No. We have conceded many less goals and kept many more clean sheets. The problem is that our top scorer has 6 goals this season an THAT is why our goal difference is poor.
Fact is there's about 12-14 teams every year which can realisticly go down. Newcastle proved nobody is too big to go down. CH is a good manager and if you stay up he'll definitely have some money to play with (as will every other team) though I think you'll be the team to go down (which would be sad as nothing against you guys) I just don't see where your points are coming from.
I´ve said this on more than one occasion, but I´ll say it again, I think last year the players over-achieved and took everyone by surprise. Lambert knew that, and after one game of this season, Hughton knew it too. This year not only has the element of surprise gone, but the rest of the League have sussed us out, the players have found their more natural level, and things have been nowhere near as easy. But despite all that we´ve still managed to stay away from the relegation places for pretty much the whole season. This is partly down to the new players Hughton has brought in, partly down to his more defensive nature, and partly down to the fact that there have been at least two far worse-performing teams than everyone else this year. And when you add the fact that our first choice goalkeeper has been out for half the season, I´d say our current position is pretty much what we could have expected. Yes, at one stage of the season we were in the top half of the table, but we weren´t there because of playing any differently to how we are now. We didn´t play a different system when we were beating Swansea away, Arsenal and Man U, in all those games we played 4,2,3,1 or 4,4,1,1, just as we are now. The fact is that winning or staying unbeaten breeds confidence, while not winning or losing drains it, and not very much a manager can do will change that, if they could, then I´m sure that Lambert with all his man-management skills would have had Villa challengÃng for Europe before last Christmas, given the miserable start to the season they had. League position-wise Hughton has done as could be expected imo, quality of football-wise we´ve had to suffer, but that is down to more factors than just Chris Hughton.
I can't believe the title of this thread, 2 wins in 20 games FFS ! The man has failed miserably IMO, NO OTHER CLUB IN ALL FOUR DIVISIONS WOULD RETAIN A MANAGER WITH THAT RECORD, Get Real
Do you disagree then Dave ? Do you really think that Hughton should keep his job ? If you do then I suggest you are in the minority. The man should fall on his sword regardless of whether we stay up or not. Mark my words, should a miracle happen and we do manage to avoid the drop, it will be more of the same next year and well you know it !
This is the bit I have a problem with. No manager in the world is going to look at our squad and think, "You know what, I really need to buy 2 more CB's, a RB and perhaps another GK". Despite our defending-by-numbers approach, we do have stronger players in these positions than going forward. Clearly the summer focus of whoever is in charge will be to renovate the attack. If we survive, we've already got a very impressive striker coming in, to be joined I suspect by a new CAM, a LW, and probably 2 CM/DM's who can actually contribute to both attacks and defence. Even if the mentality of 10 behind the ball persists, we're going to have much improved players to play that way with, and logic would suggest that will yield more goals and more points. Also, the more "Hughton-favoured" the squad gets, the more competition there'll be in his preferred formations, and there'll be more flexibility to adjust the set-up to the opposition.
What is the basis for this argument? I keep seeing people speak of this as if it is axiomatic but what evidence is there for this?
I dont really get what people expect? We are not a massive club with millions of pounds to throw around. Ok 2 wins in 20 is not good but we are still out of the relegation zone and I think most people would of been happy to stay up at the start of the season. Im sure lots of teams would sack their manager for that record but you have to have some stability and look long term. Plus who would really be better? It is hard to watch at times but we have a long term plan and must stick to it. I doubt changing managers would make much difference in terms of league position. All too often people think too short term rather than the bigger picture. Also all to often the manager is blamed out right for everything that goes wrong. The players must also take some responsibility. I know the manager instructs them on tactics etc but they are the ones on the pitch and need to stand up and be counted.
I can understand the frustration building over recent months, but like many others I knew this season was going to be a battle to survive and that is still what it is. The 2 wins in 20 games is accurate, but misleading, as it ignores the 3 straight wins just before that 20 game stretch started. The season is an entity and has to be seen as such. The possibility of relegation now makes me feel queasy, but that is football. That recent run has also been exacerbated by major refereeing mistakes in at least 4 games (WBA, West Ham, Sunderland and Arsenal). I know the adage that says this evens out over the season, but it pointedly hasn't in this case. At least 6 points were lost as a result. If we do go down, that alone will make me sicker still, but those referees will go on regardless. Yes, the manager must take some of the responsibility, but not all of it. The board has to look at their decisions in January, knowing what was at stake. The players also need to look at their own performances week in, week out as well. Scapegoating isn't the answer!
This................Maybe last years squad '' over achieved'' that is because they had someone to motivate them. This year there seems to be absolutely no motivation. we are going down without a fight. If we stay up now it will be a miracle and will have nothing to do with Hughton being manager. I cannot see how anyone would want this man in charge. At least Lambert looked after his players, never disrespected them in public, something which Hughton has been doing from day 1. he needs to go whatever happens. Yes being in the bottom half of the premier league is where we belong at this time but we should be playing to win, not draw. I would rather lose after a good game than lose without even trying.
I know why I left Norwich now. It's this "small" attitude. What more do we expect? For goodness sake if everything was based on this inferior attitude, we would be in the Conference. You are as good as the league you play in. We stayed in the Prem on merit and were mid table on merit at Christmas and playing a far more expansive game. Norwich have no competition from anything else. No neighbours. No other top sport played in the area. Swansea have moved on with less. QPR have gone under with more. So size and income mean little when it comes to the teams in the bottom 12. But the same old record keeps being played when we fail. "Didn't we do well considering our inferiority complex".
Swansea have had far more investment than we have, thanks to the generosity of Brendan Rodgers. Whilst our 'standard' income is probably more, £15m for Joe Allen, £7m as a severance package from Liverpool for Rodgers+team is probably more than we had to spend all summer. In their case their strongly held footballing philosophy made narrowing down managerial candidates easier, and made them an attractive proposition for foreign managers and players. I don't think we've got an inferiority complex as fans, we're just realistic. We know we've got a much cheaper squad than most in the league, so survival was only ever going to be the limit of our ambitions this year. However, after 2 or 3 seasons survival, I think many of us want us to be looking for mid-table safety, followed by decent cup runs and pushing for Europa league football. Whilst we're currently small, we have the fans to support a much bigger stadium, and then there'll be little by which to say we do not deserve to be a Premier League side.
