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Weekend Debate

Discussion in 'Leeds United' started by Doc, Mar 25, 2022.

  1. Doc

    Doc Well-Known Member

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    AC60934F-998E-4595-8FE1-3F3954A46747.jpeg

    First off, I would like JM or Victor Orta, or the club to tell us what the actual plan really is, because we need some common sense here?



    This post has been instigated by something Victor Orta told everyone involved in a webinar event this week, called “Training Ground Guru”. Orta attends and speaks at a lot of these events as he is one of the most respected Sporting Directors in European football. I know some on here would dispute that, but nevertheless…



    Whilst lecturing these coaches, club directors, managers, he came out with something I find amazing, given the season we have had. He said gone are the days when football clubs could carry on paying huge transfer fees, huge wages and have huge playing squads. He insisted that the optimum squad size is 18 first team players, backed up by 4 academy players…….. hasn't this been the crux of all our problems this season?

    It also begs the question of why Jesse Marsch was chosen, because the Red Bull model is similar? What new coach would come to Leeds to follow Bielsa and only have a small squad? For me we are in this position because of only having a small squad. We have had unprecedented injuries way beyond any other club, and have tried to use square pegs and kids. Its been a failure and when the season is over you would expect a full analysis to take place, but you wouldn't expect your Sporting Director to double down and say this is the way….



    Our first team squad



    Meslier

    Ayling

    Koch

    Cooper

    Llorente

    Struijk

    Firpo

    Rodrigo

    Forshaw

    Dallas

    Phillips

    Klich

    Harrison

    Bamford

    Roberts

    Raphinha

    Shackelton

    Gelhardt



    Academy



    Klaesson

    Cresswell

    Hjelde

    Greenwood



    Only Meslier and Dallas have actually played plenty of games and the rest have struggled with injuries or suspensions or illness.



    This summer there needs to be a new structure as some of the player's who got us promoted are eased out or onto the bench with some better players or good back-ups brought in. We can all debate who goes or stays, who moves onto the bench or even will Summerville make it into our first team to replace Raphinha who we expect to leave. Will Bate need another season in the 23s before stepping up can Nohan Kenneh step up into being Phillips back up player. Obviously Im assuming we survive and stay up because some major upheaval will take place if we fail. Got to be some major change though this summer, but FFS Victor how can you sell something that has clearly failed, as being the way forward, guru my arse
     
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  2. Jammy 07

    Jammy 07 Well-Known Member

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    Personally I'm a fan of the small squad method. It keeps everyone involved and fully engaged whilst at the same time allowing younger players opportunites to train with the 1st team and ultimately break through (if good enough).

    Orta is correct that having bloated squads should be a thing of the past as the cost is too high. Obviously if you have European football then the size of the squad needs adjusting according to the expected amount of games. We only play 38 games per season and then rest/rotate in the cups anyway.

    It's the quality of the squad that's the issue with certain players not being of a high enough standard.

    Replace Roberts, Shackleton, Firpo for example with high end signings and then add that quality central midfielder and the whole make up of our squad would changes for the better.

    Finally I'd agree that a squad of 18 is too small and that 20 should be the minimum but thinking back to the days when we always had 30+ senior pro's on the books that now seems ridiculous.

    Edit; Man City have used 19 players so far this season in the PL. Plus one appearance by Mendy who's locked up. Additionally 5 kids (u23's) have also played a total of 251 mins between them whilst making 9 appearances.
     
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    Last edited: Mar 25, 2022
  3. Doc

    Doc Well-Known Member

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    Dont disagree with anything you said here Jammy and the problem has been quality and injuries. As I said in the OP only 2 players have contributed significantly, the rest have had injuries, illness or suspensions. And we were then forced into using:
    Greenwood
    Gelhardt
    Summerville
    Jenkins
    Cresswell
    Hjelde
    Drameh
    Klaesson
    Bate
    McKinstry
    McCarron

    Also had Kenneh, Gray, Van Den Hueval, Miller, McGurk on the bench, so at least 16 U23s used which impacted the 23 season. Bielsa said 18 plus 6 academy players is enough, but Orta only 4 but were we just unlucky with injuries or stupid not adding quality so the reliance on the academy not as bad?
     
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  4. milkyboy

    milkyboy Well-Known Member

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    As Jammy says, the concept is fine, but all your players need to be up to standard AND we’ve proven this year that too small a squad can leave you in serious trouble if you have bad luck with injuries.

    Maybe they also feel that Bielsa’s training methods contribute to the injury list. I’m not opening that one up again, just chucking out an old theory <laugh>

    personally I’d rather Victor focussed on his job rather than being an ‘expert consultant’. Can see the benefit from a self publicist perspective but not so sure from a Leeds perspective… unless it introduces him to hitherto unknown scouting networks!
     
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  5. milkyboy

    milkyboy Well-Known Member

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    Or maybe…
    … it’s all a cunning bluff. Respected guru Victor tells everyone to have a small squad. Everyone present hangs on his every word and cuts half their players. We then pick up a few bargains from the flooded market and increase our squad size.

    Next season, we have a large healthy squad and the rest of the premier league are left fielding 12 year olds whenever someone’s crocked.
     
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  6. wakeybreakyheart

    wakeybreakyheart Well-Known Member

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    Is the last three words a request?
     
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  7. Doc

    Doc Well-Known Member

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    If we assume Raphinha goes we should buy a top striker. If Klich goes back to Poland we buy that top midfielder we should have bought3 windows ago. Shackelton and Roberts sold we bring in 2 better players and next season looks better and the U23s with more experience?
     
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  8. Doc

    Doc Well-Known Member

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    Heres a clip from the Training Ground Guru, after he said we will not be spending big in the summer because we invest in youth. This is scary because we all know not every kid makes it
     
    #8
  9. Doc

    Doc Well-Known Member

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    All makes sense Victor if you have a full available squad, but falls apart when half the players are injured. I hope we buy a striker, even though I believe Joffy is going to be a big player, but the chances we have missed this season has almost done for us, watching Dan James up top, for example. Roberts isnt the answer neither, we needed a real strikerand yet Joffy was seen as a last resort
     
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  10. Aski

    Aski Well-Known Member

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    Doc, you missed off Dan James from the 1st team squad you posted.

    Whilst I agree with what Jammy said about preferring a small first team squad, we also have to consider that we have been devastated by injuries for 2 seasons whilst MB was in charge and for whatever reason you want to go with, our younger players have mostly at best been adequate. City can get away with it as their first team squad is quality and those younger players who have had to step up, as well as being highly talented, also have the bonus of being surrounded by highly skillful players when brought into the 11 on the pitch.

    Another way of looking at it, is no matter how bad I am at football, my mistakes would be less exposed playing for City, than it would be playing for ourselves.

    So whilst I would prefer to have a minimum 20 man squad, we are only one short of that, going by Doc's list (+ James). Now given the number of comments on here about Shackleton, Roberts, Harrison, Firpo, Cooper and to a lesser extent Llorente, James and Rodrigo, it doesn't just come down to numbers, but also quality. So whilst we have had a number of injuries this season, the other issue is that those replacing the injured players have not been of the same quality to fill the position that they have been required to play.


    So in a way Orta is also right, the future is probably geared towards a smaller first team squad, but they need to be of better quality than what we currently have. The majority of our squad are ok in their preferred positions, and there is no doubt that we could improve every position by bringing someone new in. The problem with having just ok players whilst maintaining a small squad, is that those ok players become less so when asked to cover a position that they don't play regular.

    Just an edit seeing as Doc has posted a video of Orta, which I havent watched yet, so could make everything I have said totally pointless
     
    #10
    Last edited: Mar 25, 2022
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  11. FORZA LEEDS

    FORZA LEEDS Well-Known Member

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    That doesn’t look too far off what Orta is suggesting anyway tbf (added James as noted by Aski) when you think the plan has always been to improve the squad gradually year on year.

    So the first team squad of 19 players could be improved by losing Firpo, Roberts and Klich and replacing them with two top quality players, leaving an 18 man squad.

    That leaves the best of the u23’s, all of whom have now had first team experience:

    Klaesson
    Hjelde
    Cresswell
    Greenwood
    Drameh
    Summerville

    So that’s effectively a 24 man squad right there.

    (on condition of keeping PL status)
     
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  12. Aski

    Aski Well-Known Member

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    Orta said that we are not in a position to spend £150m every summer. I don't see anything wrong with that, because I would say the majority of us know that is true.

    He said we would probably be in a position to buy one or two players every summer. Now again he doesn't really go into detail, so it is open to interpretation as to what he means. If he means players who are going to be 1st team players then again nothing to much wrong with that, providing of course that this is an improvement on whoever they are replacing. Of course you would expect smaller transfers for u23 replacements and I appreciate that he doesn't say that, but I took it as an overview of the plan as opposed to anything detailed.

    Whilst I agree with you Doc about whether the U23's make it or not, and until they play for the first team it is difficult for the majority of us to assess, especially given that MB preferred to rely upon experienced square peg solutions as opposed to inexperienced round peg solutions. This season it has been hard to judge any of the younger players who have come in and not performed to how we hoped they would, due to how poor the first team players have been performing for whatever reason.

    The big issue with Orta's reasoning at present, is that we have a number of first team players where age is not on their side, they are going to be less effective than previously, and also a number of the first team squad, not being judged as adequate replacements for the starting 11, by the supporters.

    So presuming we stay up, and lets say Raphinha leaves, that leaves us with 18 1st team squad players + emerging u23's

    Now if we get £60 mil for Raphinha and lets use last seasons figure of £40m as our current transfer budget, that gives us £100m to bring in new players.

    1 marquee £30m+ signing plus 3 £20mil+ signings to replace any of the 1st team squad that move on.

    Any transfer fees for those who we move on will fund any additions to the u23's
     
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  13. NostradEmus

    NostradEmus Firpo is Shit

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    I'd happily listen to offers for nearly every single player who have played in the final third over the last 2 years. They just haven't been prolific enough in front of goal.

    That would include..

    Bamford, Roberts, Harrison, James, Rodrigo, Klich and Greenwood. Raphinha can do one as I believe he has had a negative influence in the changing room recently.

    We don't need this many centre backs so would listen to offers for one of Llorente, Koch, Cooper or Struijk. Let one go now and another next season as Cresswell and Hjelde develop. I'd send one of Hjelde or Cresswell out on loan next season.

    Then there is the **** to offload. The definites to leave would be Firpo, Roberts, Klich. Jamie Shackleton needs to leave for the sake of his own career.

    That would give us some funds to get a trio of Premier league midfielders, a left back, a couple of strikers and finally a Pablo replacement.

    Might seem harsh but I'd say on this seasons performances that everyone is for sale. They've been utterly unprofessional and sub standard all season. I fully blame the players for this seasons failings. ****ing ****ers.
     
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  14. wakeybreakyheart

    wakeybreakyheart Well-Known Member

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    Big flaw in your sume is the fee for raphinha. How much do we owe for him and what is the sell on clause from his last club?. Then there would be tax on any profit going on the accounts.
     
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  15. wakeybreakyheart

    wakeybreakyheart Well-Known Member

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    Would you sell me and if so who would buy me.
     
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  16. FORZA LEEDS

    FORZA LEEDS Well-Known Member

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    We’re auctioning you off and we have our first excited interested buyer. Opening bid 25p

    upload_2022-3-25_17-2-35.jpeg
     
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  17. Aski

    Aski Well-Known Member

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    Fair points Wakey, although I wouldn't describe it as a big flaw as it was more of an example in response to Doc's comment about not spending big. Just that the sale of Raphinha together with what we spent last year would allow the signings of one marquee signing, plus 2 others of decent value (not 3 as I originally said).

    I guess I was trying to paint a general picture, but by mentioning figures made it look more specific and thus left me open for criticism :)

    However I would also hope that we would be in a better position to spend more than last season without any transfer income, given that we have had crowds back at the ground, thus allowing increased merchandise sales, together with not having to pay back any money to Sky due to this season being a normal televised one as far as they are concerned
     
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  18. ristac

    ristac Well-Known Member
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    I was thinking virtually the same earlier today, whilst I cannot prove anything I have a strong feeling (and reading bits on this very forum) that Rodrigo, Raphinha and Llorente have possibly caused a bit of unrest leading up to Bielsa departing.

    Raphinha could quieten his agent down but it's pointing more and more to him being unsettled. If he'd played his best all season it might be different but we've seen another side to Raphinha in quite a few games this season that suggests when he is sulking he's no use to anyone, if we can get big money or use him in an exchange plus cash lets do it..
     
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  19. wakeybreakyheart

    wakeybreakyheart Well-Known Member

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    She's a looker.
     
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  20. Doc

    Doc Well-Known Member

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    Aski makes some valid points about the age if some if our players. My belief is that the club will not rip the heart or spine out this squad who got us promoted, but realise upgrades are needed. Klich, Cooper, Dallas, Ayling and Forshaw are the worries. Its suggested Klich prefers a move back to Poland but the other 4 are decent options as starters or subs and probably better options than kids.

    Shackleton is a midfielder but not really had a chance, so will Marsch see potential or offloahim. We dint know how Roberts is seen but remember he was given a new deal last summer

    Rodrigo in an interview with Graham Smyth has said he wants to stay as he loves it, his wife and daughter love it. He also said he struggled all season with a foot injury and has played through the pain. He said he is now fully healthy and wanting to smash the rest of the season?

    Raphunha may leave but as Aski says there will be a wedge of money to add to whatever budget we get, plus sales of some U23s and maybe even some of ghe players mentioned. Some may even bet their wish and see Firpo sold or Llorente, and that means more money coming in and a bunch of replacements required.

    i do not however see many of the U23s stepping up to replace first team players who may be sold, we need to replace them with better quality

    23s who will make it are Gelhardt, Cresswell, Summerville, Drameh, Hjelde, I have not seen Greenwood affect a game like Joffy has for the first team, even though for country and U23s both are on a par, but Gelhardt has something special. Greenwood will leave if hes not involved and has a shorter contract than Joffy. Bate will make it but not next season, Klaesson looked good? Kenneh may break through but not seeing anyone else just yet

    ,
     
    #20
    Last edited: Mar 25, 2022
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