Is Webber the worst driver this year? They say you judge your performance in comparison with your teammate because you have the same machinery and Webber is miles behind Vettel At least crash kid Hamilton for all his disasters this year, is in touching distance of his teammate and has won 2 races this year Webber has done none of these and apart from Germany and the last laps of Silverstone has not matched Vettel this year, not even for a race win. He's miles of the pace in qualifying and his starts, don't get me started, are one of the worst in the history of an F1 driver Opinions?
If you judge them by their previous form then Webber and Hamilton are having mares of a season. Judging them off their team mate puts Massa and Webber in a bad light but in Massa's case not all things are equal, publicly anyway, plus Alonso is a lot better I'm not really sure who has been the worst driver of the year, I want to say Massa but something is holding me back.
More Webber bashing. Unbelievable. Fastest lap difference between them at Singapore was about 1.4 seconds which is complete bullshit. Webber is nowhere near 1.4 seconds slower than Vettel. I think Red Bull at the start of the year completely designed the car to Vettel's liking and then said to Webber "Right, this is what you're driving". It's also strange that Webber has had way more mechanical issues than Vettel. Webber had much less bad starts last year and I refuse to believe that a driver of his caliber and experience can't fix that up after all this time. I also think it's unfair to compare the luckiest guy and unluckiest guy in F1.And in a few respects, Webber is much better than Vettel like overtaking and coming back through a field. Truthfully I'd rather see him at McLaren, just so he gets a fair shot and he'd be a lot happier.. Expect Miggins along at any moment (Not that I care, as he is on my ignore list).
I think they mentioned it, during a free practice session recently that Webber is currently testing new parts for next year and has done so for a few races? Unless I'm mixing it up with someone else. I also think that Webber hasn't felt 100% comfortable in the team since last years "number two driver" incident. He hasn't been the same since. If he were to switch place with Hamilton and team up with Jensson I think his performance compared to this year, would skyrocket. At the same time RedBull would crumble. No, not because of Hamilton, more because him and Vettel wouldn't click the least. Both of them would be destroyed by the pressure they would have given each other. Hamilton, Alonso, Vettel, Schumacher, they are all such drivers as they need to be the clear number one in the team to perform well and none of them would ever mix well with each other.
I'm by no way a fan of Webber but I think he's in the same boat as Massa when it come to treatment from the team, Red Bull just aren't as open about it. Telling him not to race Vettel at Silverstone, handing Vettel Webbers front wing after wrecking his own, all little things that make you think Webber is an unofficial number 2. If he dropped the middle "A" and "L" from his nationality he may stand a better chance ;-)
Well I do remember Newey saying around Spa? This year that the car is designed around webber first because he's bigger, and then the car is adjusted for Seb, though with more things being added on because of the weight difference. I think even Mark admits he still can't make the Pirelli's work as well as Seb, and a reason why he dominated so early on and now again, his better understanding of the tyres have gone to another level that only Jenson can get close enough when maintaining rubber. After the upgrades that didn't work for Seb (silverstone-nurburgring) but worked for Mark looked to have peeved him off on their side and wanted it to be stopped so to focus on what seb wants or risk the WDC against McLaren. My worst driver would have to be between......Lewis/Trulli/Webber/Massa/Sutil With many reasons that I can't be bothered to type about because people will get hot under the collar.
I think you will find the reason why Vettel is dominating is because he is driving the RB7. Also last year Red Bull said they are designing the whole team around Vettel so while it is dissapointing it is not surprising that all this stuff like constant KERS problems, bad starts, team orders, the car suiting Vettel more, is happening to Webber.
Yeah obviously that and the Pirelli's are the main reasons why he's dominating. That and he's been almost faultless where others have messed up too many times already this season. I think nick was unfairly treated, he was outperforming Petrov and the car went from being 4th best from Australia to back runners with Lotus now at Singapore. Petrov would of got the boot if he didn't have all that money backing him.
Webber has never been much cop, highly over-rated for some reason, now he's gone from the luckiest man on the grid who had the fastest and most reliable car last year and still just made it to 2nd, to about average for the grid, his KERS problem has surface 2 or three times, at the start of the season when it wasn't that necessary, after all he isn't the only RBR to have KERS problems, I recall Vettel winning easily without his KERS. Webber is slow, he just looks good because he makes death or glory moves and hopes the driver he's overtaking is gonna move over, like Alonso at Eau Rouge, if it goes wrong, like Massa at Monza, he'll go find a camera and try and blame them, "he left me no room". He was pretty much even with Rosberg when they were at Williams and Rosberg was a novice, his first year at RBR he got soundly beaten by an ageing mediocre also ran, and since Seb's been there he's barely had a sniff on track, apart from a short period when Webber's media tactics got into Vettels head. And despite all this 'crash kid' nonsense I think you'll find that Webber has had more accidents. All this 'they favour Vettel' comes straight from Webbers propaganda machine, if it was so bad why did he sign a new contract, twice?
I do find it strange that people will glady bring up team orders and claim "schumiisum" and that the other driver is being hindered the whole way. This year and last year proves that Seb will be followed as a person and will be rumored to turn out like Michael, but Webber is the innocent victim. All thanks to sports media channels stirring the pot with something that isn't there to report about. Nobody brought up the obvious team orders Seb got in 2009 as they were then illegal. The same team order that screwed over Sebs race at Hungary 2010, trying to help Mark get clean air while ruining Sebs likely win. Seb is a team player, while Mark is a plain old mercenary ready to take the chance needed to win or get the best result. This year though it looks like Seb has stamped his foot and refused to help Mark out and he's making him suffer badly.
Webber is a good driver and always has been. The biggest problem this season is coping with the Pirelli's but even then hes a lot better than other drivers on the grid. Webber doesn't look comfortable at Red Bull - almost like he's accepted that Vettel is the team favourite. Webbber doesn't seem to have much confidence in the car, but with Vettel the car look perfectly suited to his style. Karthikeyan has been the worst driver this year. He isn't good enough for F1 and doesn't deserve the honour of driving an F1 car. I hope he fails the 107% rule in India - this might be the only way to convince HRT that even pay drivers need to be half decent.
What I don't understand is why does Mark keep resigning for the team that is 100% Vettel's he is doing himself no favours whatsoever, he will never win the championship there because he wont be allowed to..
Of course there is an element of that... Some journalists are always looking to sensationalize, exaggerate and sometimes downright make things up. Unfortunately people pick and choose which items the want to accept based on what matches their own beliefs. When they exhaust one source... they conveniently move on to the next. Same in most sports, entertainment, politics, you name it. As far as Webber is concerned though... I honestly don't believe that he's never been part of the long term goals for the team, where as Vettel is their super star and part of their long term plan. So whether consciously or sub-consciously Vettel may be getting more in the way of support from the team.
Agreed. This is also my understanding. Probably true. Yes Bob, I think there are some truisms here. Undoubtedly. I think this is true too. My belief is that Webber is to all intents and purposes, a test driver; thus side-stepping the testing ban and giving a platform from which Newey can work. Next year will see more changes but it is a safe bet (and my personal belief) that Newey/Red Bull are already ahead (possibly well ahead) of rivals in staking out the best ground for 2012. I completely disagree. Are you suggesting Red Bull management deliberately employ a poor driver? Or do you accept that they also completely disagree with your assertion? Sometimes it takes a big man to bite the bullet. He knows he has very little chance of another shot at a world title, unless something disastrous besets the chosen one who Red Bull see as their future. Let's not forget that the top brass at Red Bull have made it very clear that they are interested in re-writing record books, and that (casting aside his awesome speed for a minute) Vettel's still tender age makes him a very obvious candidate. Mark Webber understands this logic which he has no control over. He has simply had to accept it. It is a simple fact that nature herself is favouring Vettel. So what does he do? Does he leave the team in the vain hope that he'll get a better drive elsewhere without Adrian Newey designing his car - since Newey's contract is tied to Vettel - which Webber also knows!? Or does he apply some common sense in the face of reality and resign himself to the de facto number two driver in the best team, who are also paying him rather well, which still retains the possibility of a shot at a title if Vettel is for some unfortunate reason, unable to compete over a full season at some point in the future? Bearing in mind my age, I know what I'd do…
Interesting about Webber testing new parts and also very disappointing because a) he has been reduced to that by Red Bull, and b) Red Bull could easily dominate just as much as they have this year, next year.
The difference regards Webber and Massa in being poorly treated number twos in their respective teams is that Webber is generally popular and comes across as a decent bloke, whereas Massa comes across as a bit of a cry baby if you ask me. Sometimes you see him and he looks like he's about to burst into tears or spit his dummy out. Perhaps that's the Ruben's effect on his good friend... Webber's starts are surely the worst in F1 history?
On all the "Red Bull team orders crap" we're on again: The bad luck Webber has had this year (and lets not forget that Kers has been troubling Seb as well as Mark this year), was all Vettel's last year: Bahrain: Spark plug Australia: Wheel nut Spain: Wheel nut and brakes Monaco: Defective chassis Turkey: Anti-roll bar Montreal: Gearbox There was also a bizarre incident in Monza; The race before Webber had built up a forty-something point lead over Vettel and had spent the intervening days imploring Red Bull to prioritise. Vettel found himself ahead of Webber in the race before losing drive. As soon as Webber had gone by and built a small cushion Vettel suddenly recovered power and was untroubled for the rest of the race. Now I'm not saying anything untoward had happened, but if the boot was on the other foot eyebrows certainly would've been raised. In response to the claim that Vettel is suddenly much faster than Webber this year, I don't feel that is the case. In Vettel's rookie season he comfortably outscored Webber (the Toro-Rosso Vettel was driving had the same chassis, better engine, but worse aero. As well as an inferior race team). So the difference in performance was there from the beginning. Fast forward to 2009 when Vettel joined Webber at Red Bull. Vettel joined very much as the Number 2 driver, as was highlighted by the fact that Webber was given the number 1 car (14 to Vettel's 15) despite scoring less points the season before. A similar situation to that at Mercedes where Schumacher gets the lower number ahead of Rosberg. The "emotional support" Webber talked of last season was very much on his side in 2009, he was the senior driver whilst Vettel, as Webber put it, was the young pup. Vettel let his driving do the talking though (in much the same was as Rosberg the last two season), outscoring Webber again and demolishing him 15-2 in qualifying. So the gap hasn't suddenly appeared between the two drivers, it's always been there. 2010 Vettel had all the bad luck and still managed to pip Webber at the end. 2011 and the bad luck has all been Webber's and Vettel's destroyed him. In reality he gap would be somewhere between the two seasons. I'd say over the course of a season, all things being equal, Vettel would be good for at least 50 points over Webber. Webber was also on a higher salary than Seb as well in 2009/10, no doubt Seb is paid more after renegotiating his contract this winter though. Also, at Silverstone this year Webber was given preference over when to pit despite being behind Vettel, and Vettel's race was severely compromised as a result, without that Webber wouldn't have even been in a position to be told to "hold station". Also, why would Red Bull employ Webber as a de facto number two? His size compromises the design of the car, he's on a high wage and he's not a team player. Why would Red Bull bother to put up with all that and then not allow the guy to race? It's because they know he's better than a lot of available drivers even if he's not in the top tier. Cosi mentions the record books Red Bull are determined to rewrite, they'd want to do that as a constructor as well as with a driver. They want as many championships, wins, poles, podiums and fastest laps as possible and know Webber can help with this. Sure they might want Vettel to set records as a driver, but the lad will inevitably end up at Ferrari which is where he'll challenge (if he is to challenge) Schumacher's records. ------------------ Back to the original point though, I don't think Webber has been the worst driver this season. He's put in some good drives and had some bad luck. I'd say Massa has been worse, like Webber he's had a lot of bad luck, but for me he hasn't really caught the eye with any of his performances. Sandwich: What's your point with the Singapore laps? Webber was "2.3 seconds quicker" than Vettel in Shanghai. It means nothing.
My point exactly is that it does mean nothing. But people always seem under the impression that they are a constant measure. Some imagine that Webber actually is 1.4 seconds slower than Vettel.
