5 live Investigates: 'legalised ticket touting' by Premier League clubs By Andrew Fletcher BBC Radio 5 live The Football Supporters' Federation says it will complain to the Premier League about deals signed by clubs allowing their fans to re-sell match tickets for a profit. Ten clubs have formed partnerships with the secondary ticket exchange company Viagogo. Most of the clubs allow supporters to list their seats for sale at a price above face value. The clubs defend the system as a safe and legal way in which season ticket holders are recompensed for matches they cannot attend. The chairman of the Football Supporters' Federation (FSF), Malcolm Clarke, says the organisation is concerned by the growth of online ticket exchanges. "We think it cannot be right that Viagogo are allowed to do something through the internet which, if a fan did outside the ground for exactly the same price, would be a criminal offence and which could lead to a football banning order." 5 live Investigates has spoken to an Arsenal fan who was arrested for touting outside the Emirates stadium in March for selling a friend's ticket to another friend at face value. He spent the night in a police cell and eventually accepted a caution. Viagogo says its service means that fans no longer have to take that risk, and describes its mission as being "to bring efficiency and transparency to what has traditionally been a murky market place". Read comprehensive division-by-division tables here to find out what it costs to follow your team But the FSF has concerns that the online ticket exchange may undermine the controls in place through the clubs' own ticketing systems to ensure the segregation of fans. While most clubs using Viagogo insist that buyers provide a club membership number, four - Aston Villa, QPR, West Bromwich Albion and Wigan Athletic - make no such requirement. The clubs insist that they check addresses of buyers to spot potential supporters of away teams, and they reserve the right to turn away anyone who has bought a seat in the wrong section of the ground. Chelsea, whose association with Viagogo began in 2006, prevent their tickets being sold for more than face value, although the re-sale company's fees add about a fifth to the total price. Manchester City restrict the re-sale price of tickets for the Etihad stadium to 50 per cent above face value. The Premier League champions also limit the number of matches per season for which a supporter can sell tickets in order to prevent abuse of the system. Two other clubs, Liverpool and Arsenal, run their own ticket exchanges, allowing fans to sell unwanted seats in return for credits towards their season ticket renewal price. Malcolm Clarke thinks this kind of arrangement is better for fans. "What we want to see is clubs offering this service themselves, possibly deducting a small administration charge and making sure that the seat doesn't change hands for more than the face value." The Premier League did not wish to comment about the re-selling of Premier League tickets on authorised websites, saying it was for individual clubs to decide whether to offer such a service and on what terms. As well as Premier League tickets, Viagogo lists hundreds of seats for rugby union and cricket internationals. The English governing bodies of those sports have taken a dim view of the emerging secondary market. The Rugby Football Union (RFU) took Viagogo to court in March 2011 to demand the details of people re-selling tickets for England internationals. On 21 November 2012 the Supreme Court ruled in favour of the RFU. In a statement, the RFU's Chief Commercial Officer, Sophie Goldschmidt, said: "Selling tickets through secondary ticketing sites is against our terms and conditions and allows prices to be inflated, preventing many of our supporters from purchasing them. We now plan to identify such sellers and take tough sanctions to keep our tickets off secondary ticket sites and in the right hands." The case will encourage the England and Wales Cricket Board (ECB), which has promised to cancel tickets to next year's Ashes test matches and ICC Trophy games which have been re-sold on Viagogo and other ticket exchanges websites. The ECB says it has already cancelled 50 tickets for the Ashes series and it is employing a team of specialist solicitors to monitor the sites. Ed Parkinson, head of marketing at Viagogo, believes that the secondary ticket market will inevitably grow and authorities such as the ECB and RFU would be better working with the websites as football clubs are doing. After there were empty seats at some sold out Olympics events, he says "that shows what happens when you can't resell. There needs to be an efficient re-sale mechanism. "We've been through a consultation with the Department of Culture, Media and Sport and the government supports the position we take." You can listen to the full report on 5 live Investigates on Sunday, 2 December, at 21:00 GMT on BBC 5 live . http://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/0/football/20563038
Glad its being looked into, the clubs have an option of setting a price limit but they chose not to. I think the club should run its own service and only allow them to be sold at face value. On the other hand, it wont be a problem in the NPC next season.
I think I pointed this out when I was enquiring about getting tickets for our trip. they wanted £65 per ticket even though the face value was only £28. and this was before the tickets even went on sale. total rip off.
Of course it's a rip off, but its a transparent one based on supply and demand. If you don't like/ can't afford the price there is no obligation to buy. If the tickets were not on Viagogo they would only be available through touts. If people want to moan, have a go at the club for not setting up their own scheme, or capping resale prices to face value, or requiring membership numbers from purchasers. Then remember that the club set this up to give ST holders some compensation for when they can't get to games. I don't like this practice, and would always give my STs to mates if I could not make the game, but I have also bought tickets from touts outside grounds and this seems a much safer option. The RFU and ECB will get it closed down eventually anyway. As the FA/Premier League is organized theft anyway, don't suppose they are too bothered.
SB- With great respect mate, just 'cos you know you're being ripped off it doesn't make it alright. And it would be interesting to hear from any lads on here who have used the service, to find out what they would of done with their unused ST if Viagogo didn't exist. Would they really of sold them to touts (their season tickets) or decide it wasn't worth the hassle and give them to a mate. (Not gonna knock anyone on here just curious) IMO it's a disgrace that this legalised touting is going on. Same goes for the blokes outside touting for profit, they should all be treated the same. Glad this is finally being looked at.
Not justifying it Staines, but it crops up every few weeks and, in my view, we attack the wrong target. Of course Viagogo are shysters, but the club has set the rules. I joined the scheme without thinking, took a look at it and thought the only reason I would use it would be to undercut the greedy buggers asking for multiple times face value by selling my tickets at half price. Which would be daft, and a truly Pyrrhic victory. But there's no way I would give my ST to a true tout - you would never let that piece of plastic out of your hand! I like what my Gooner mates do - 6 or 7 of them have 9 or 10 STs between them - originally sons/partners who are no longer on the scene had the extra ones, and they know if they give them up they will never be able to get them back, such is the waiting list. But they can't really afford the extra tickets at a grand a pop, so they pool their tickets and sell on to mates who are more casual Gooners or the rare 'trusted' opposition supporter - like me. Always sell on at face value (or, I reckon, slightly less). And don't let me pay if Arsenal win (believe me, I'm dying to pay one day!). It's a nice little co-operative system. But all in all there are many worse injustices in the world to get wound up about.
Buying tickets for home matches includes a £3.50 'booking fee', another rip-off. We are paying through the nose because they've got us where they want us, demand outstripping supply. Viagogo recently lost a court case to the RFU forcing them to reveal names of those who supplied their tickets. They argued that it was breaching the 'Data Protection Act' but lost. They've now got round this by basing the info part of their operation in Switzerland which puts them outside the remit of the courts. As long as there is demand they will flourish...
Personally I think that if it' used on a one off occassion where you cant make a match and just want a bit of money back for it then fine. What I dont like is that theoretically people could buy a season ticket for £600 then put the ticket up week after week eventually pulling a profit on it. As we saw with the Chelsea match tickets were going for hundreds of pounds and some were recouping half of what they paid for their ST in the first place.
You could see every game for free, buy 2 STs and sell one each week. However they are monitored so I suspect people could be in trouble if they try this. Also the prices have dropped massively and the Villa game was being sold at a loss, Id imagine Fulham are going over face value.
Presumably they monitor use of the actual season ticket through the barcode scan as you enter. There are 3 seats next to me which have been unoccupied the entire season, except for the Chelsea game. A Dad and two youngish sons I think. Of course there could be lots of reasons for this, but you would hope that the club would phone them up, ask if there was a reason they aren't coming, and if they don't intend to come offer to buy the seats back to sell on to members.
The 2 Seats next to me in SAR have names on the back but have been used by different people except Saturdays game when they were empty.
I have used Viagogo and the lad who sits next to me has also used it. I have 2 ST's and will be missing 5 games over Christmas/January. 6 of the 10 tickets were sold on Viagogo, 4 are still for sale. I made a few bob for the Liverpool tickets. In all cases, I checked what the lowest price was before I set my price a pound or two lower, ie my tickets became the cheapest. I thought they would sell quickly that way. I even have a ticket for sale on there for the West Brom game for £24 which is below face value and I cant sell it. One of my season tickets is an U16 ticket and that has sold for nearly every game. I think I got £13 for the Norwich game and £12 for the West Brom game. I wonder are the people buying the U16 tickets actual youths or are they adults buying U16 tickets on the cheap? I suppose we will only know when they turn up for the games. The lad who sits beside me sold his 1 adult and 1 U16 tickets for £150 for the Chelsea game to two Americans. He told me he sold his tickets for the Liverpool game for £145 each = £290 for the 2. After charges I think he said he gets £240 approx. One of the tickets is an U16 ticket. I mentioned before that I spoke to the QPR box office about selling tickets on Viagogo and they told me that every single ticket being put up for sale there is being monitored by the club. I would imagine the club gets a cut of the fees being charged by Viagogo to both the sellers and the buyers?
I can beat that 3 years ago, we had empty ST seats that were used just for one game. It did look like a Fulham type bloke and his kids though. Viagogo get both 10% off the buyer and the selling so they make a fair bit. I think I was luck to sell my 2 boxing day tickets for a total of £50.
I sold my QPR vs Chelsea ticket at the beggining of the season, when I was on holiday....I got £100 as that was the going rate of the other tickets at the time. Some Canadian bloke on holiday bought my ticket and loved it as part of his holiday trips. The club should put a cap on, but as Ive mentioned before....I own the rights to that seat for the year....if someone is willing to say "hey, ill have your seat for that game for £100" then so be it....before Viagogo came along my ticket would have remained in my wallet and the seat gone empty. Its like selling things on ebay.....if you get a price for something over its face value...is that ripping someone off?...I personally dont. and they were never forced to buy it. If people buy tickets, simply to profit by selling over face value for each game, then thats a completely different story.
Selling things on ebay isnt illegal, ticket touting is. Im sure this sort of thing will be illegal very soon. If they are willing to arrest some bloke at the emirates because a mate handed over money (only face value) for a spare he had then you can bet they will crack down on this.
Exactly right flyer and the sooner the better. I'm sure the club could devise an in house system whereby its capped etc..
Don't get me wrong Franckster , not having a go 'cos what you are saying seems totally reasonable BUT if Viagogo didn't exist would you definately let your seat go empty or would you of spent a little bit of effort trying to give it to a football supporting mate for cost of a small drink ?? I'm just curious mate honest.
One more thing, the other thing the club need to do is stop the free kids tickets, I see empty seats and an adult sat there for the big games. They are preventing a paying fan from being able to watch games.
Agree mate but maybe do a few kids for a quid games (or something like that) . They are the future after all. Same as you I used to get pissed off when a bloke a few seasons ago had 3 kids tickets near me a brought them twice in the season. (Even though now it's 1 freebie per paying adult I think )
