Off Topic UK / EU Future

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Toby said:
Aww poor little snowflake. There's no such thing as a 'Liberal Left clique' on here, there are just a few intelligent and rational posters that believe Brexit is a stupid idea.

Now continue your sniping with the occasional bullshit 'facts' thrown in. Like most Brexiters your xenophobia overrules logic and reality.
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Again, more abuse and no facts to back up your comments - still waiting for the clique to respond
 
colognehornet said:
Just to add to my previous post the numbers of illegal workers in the UK: Drwan from a variety of sources beginning with the Home Office study based on Census 2001 data released in March 2005. Updated by research team from LSE commissioned by the GLC, published in 2009. Later University of Oxford study at the end of 2011. Obviously the exact numbers are difficult to count because illegal immigrants do not want to be counted ! All studies show that the number oscillates between 417,000 (lowest estimate) and 863,000 (highest) - so it appears that my quarter of a million was the most conservative of estimates from these.
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So just guesses based on data that is totally irrelevant (how is Censor data relevant to illegals) and assumptions that are not specified. Equally, no one can state how many illegals there are in Germany, France, Italy etc.
 
colognehornet said:
There are such things as inalienable rights Yorkie. In terms of so called acquired rights gained through residence in another country - basically the longer the residence, the more rights you have. These are established in the Vienna Convention, which Britain is signatory to. The government may huff and puff about what rights to grant to those EU. citizens, and may try to appear generous, but the truth is that a lot of these acquired rights are guaranteed by International laws and conventions which are independent of the EU. A person cannot be stripped of citizenship in this way - the question now is to look at the substance of EU Citizenship to see if it was/is over and above that of national citizenship. Initial indications suggest that this cannot be taken away by the actions of individual national governments - and that EU Citizenship would actually survive independently for the individual citizen. The situation is not completely clear and is being worked on by both the ECJ and the European Court of Human Rights. If a British citizen refused to give up EU. citizenship and actually takes it to an international court then it could be a very tricky case - but, as always, the 'individual' often doesn't have the financial resources for this step, and the reality is often different to theory.
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Thanks Cologne.... I thought there were some legalities like this....

I guess there will be test cases etc.......
 
wear_yellow said:
So just guesses based on data that is totally irrelevant (how is Censor data relevant to illegals) and assumptions that are not specified. Equally, no one can state how many illegals there are in Germany, France, Italy etc.
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How could it be more than an educated guess W_Y. Illegal immigrants are not going to stand up in a row for you to count them. As far as Germany is concerned the situation is much clearer because Germany has a Meldepflicht ie. a law that every move of address has to be registered with the local authorities. Without the 'Meldebestätigung' ie. the piece of paper saying that you have done this - you cannot open a bank account, or join a health insurance. Both of which are essential in Germany because payment of 99% of all work done is by direct bank transfer - even social payments are done in this way. There is, quite literally, hardly any cash in hand work done here - even wage packets disappeared here about 60 years ago. This is not to say that cash is not popular here - it is, but not for work done. In fact the Germans are a nation of cash payers, by choice - most don't use credit cards for everyday things - I also prefer it because cash is more anonymous.
 
colognehornet said:
Please look up on the status of EU. Citizenship before coming back on this W_Y. As for South Africa. In 2000, the South African Government, increasingly frustrated at the large numbers of skilled nurses leaving the country, called for compensation from destination countries (not just Britain), and used international courts for this purpose. Complaints to the British Government about the loss of nurses led the NHS to advise its hospitals to stop recruiting South African nurses. The problem is that filling up necessary gaps in the labour market can only be done from countries which have a surplus in the required profession - if one of these countries develops a shortage as a result of our targetted poaching of workers then it can all get very messy.
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It's still meaningless. It clearly states in the Amsterdam treaty that "that European citizenship does not replace national citizenship". So after Brexit, EU Citizenship has no meaning in the UK i.e. they no longer have freedom of movement, they can no longer apply to the ECJ for matters internal to the UK etc etc etc.
 
colognehornet said:
How could it be more than an educated guess W_Y. Illegal immigrants are not going to stand up in a row for you to count them. As far as Germany is concerned the situation is much clearer because Germany has a Meldepflicht ie. a law that every move of address has to be registered with the local authorities. Without the 'Meldebestätigung' ie. the piece of paper saying that you have done this - you cannot open a bank account, or join a health insurance. Both of which are essential in Germany because payment of 99% of all work done is by direct bank transfer - even social payments are done in this way. There is, quite literally, hardly any cash in hand work done here - even wage packets disappeared here about 60 years ago. This is not to say that cash is not popular here - it is, but not for work done. In fact the Germans are a nation of cash payers, by choice - most don't use credit cards for everyday things - I also prefer it because cash is more anonymous.
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But you pepper your essays with these little gems that you pose as facts - you guess how many tourists would stop coming to the UK and you pose them as facts, you guess at how many people from EU countries in the UK and pose them as facts.
 
wear_yellow said:
But you pepper your essays with these little gems that you pose as facts - you guess how many tourists would stop coming to the UK and you pose them as facts, you guess at how many people from EU countries in the UK and pose them as facts.
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Not little gems posing as facts W_Y. I also don't recall putting a figure on the numbers of tourists who would stop coming to the UK - but the number who are currently coming is easy enough to find out - the GLC have the figures for London. As to the exact numbers of EU. nationals in the UK. these are only really possible from the 10 year census reports, because Britain has no reliable way of measuring this as would be the case in Germany. Also the use of the closest possible figures in this case is to counteract Ukip's often bogus claims - apparently those voting Ukip are likely to believe that the numbers of eg. Rumanians in the UK. is several times the actual figure. If I use figures it is because I have got them from somewhere - in order to avoid accusations of this sort, I will quote the source in future. Links I cannot provide, because every time I try it it goes tits up ! (Not quite a digital native)
 
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colognehornet said:
Not little gems posing as facts SH. I also don't recall putting a figure on the numbers of tourists who would stop coming to the UK - but the number who are currently coming is easy enough to find out - the GLC have the figures for London. As to the exact numbers of EU. nationals in the UK. these are only really possible from the 10 year census reports, because Britain has no reliable way of measuring this as would be the case in Germany. Also the use of the closest possible figures in this case is to counteract Ukip's often bogus claims - apparently those voting Ukip are likely to believe that the numbers of eg. Rumanians in the UK. is several times the actual figure. If I use figures it is because I have got them from somewhere - in order to avoid accusations of this sort, I will quote the source in future. Links I cannot provide, because every time I try it it goes tits up ! (Not quite a digital native)
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You are now being called SH, poor chap. I wouldn't wish that on anyone :emoticon-0100-smile
 
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wear_yellow said:
It's still meaningless. It clearly states in the Amsterdam treaty that "that European citizenship does not replace national citizenship". So after Brexit, EU Citizenship has no meaning in the UK i.e. they no longer have freedom of movement, they can no longer apply to the ECJ for matters internal to the UK etc etc etc.
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EU citizenship does not replace national citizenship but is extra to it - and, once given, functions independently - at least this is the accessment given by some European lawyers. As I said the issue of the exact nature of EU. Citizenship is being discussed within the ECJ and the European Court of Human Rights. There may be contradictory material on this but this is for the legal profession to decide. The issue also came to the fore regarding EU Citizens in Catalonia being battered and shot by the Spanish police - should the EU have done more in that case ? On principle the EU. has the right to protect it's citizens even against the actions of their own government - but this is so seldom used that the legal position is not clear.
 
Richard North - that well noted remainer - has slated the Singham/IEA paper as showing a complete lack of understanding of international trade.
This is the thing - lots of apparent experts on how to get a good deal have spent over 2 years kicking May and Co but have yet to come out with a credible alternative.
I saw an IEA paper on another Brexit trade issue and it did make some rather creative assumptions.
I'm beginning to think we should just go with Canada plus and hope for the best....
 
Dan Starkey 2 said:
Richard North - that well noted remainer - has slated the Singham/IEA paper as showing a complete lack of understanding of international trade.
This is the thing - lots of apparent experts on how to get a good deal have spent over 2 years kicking May and Co but have yet to come out with a credible alternative.
I saw an IEA paper on another Brexit trade issue and it did make some rather creative assumptions.
I'm beginning to think we should just go with Canada plus and hope for the best....
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The IEA paper is a credible alternative, the Canada plus will be the only alternative to a no deal.
 
superhorns said:
The IEA paper is a credible alternative, the Canada plus will be the only alternative to a no deal.
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Hmm - hasn't exactly had a rapturous reception even from some Brexiteers and may not be acceptable to the EU which is a bit of a hitch.
The maths is flawed in it too apparently - economists eh? <laugh>
 
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superhorns said:
May has apparently ruled herself out of trying for a Canada plus deal, there is now no alternative to replacing her if she keeps this policy.
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And how will you replace her? As I pointed out the numbers within the Tory MPs do not stack up for that option. The rump can warble on as much as they like, but they cannot remove her.
 
Dan Starkey 2 said:
Hmm - hasn't exactly had a rapturous reception even from some Brexiteers and may not be acceptable to the EU which is a bit of a hitch.
The maths is flawed in it too apparently - economists eh? <laugh>
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You obviously recognise flawed economics from the silly Robbin's civil servant plan, that was clearly not acceptable weeks ago. Our senior civil servants reputation has been heavily tarnished.

The EU has indicated they will accept a Canada style deal once the Irish border issue can be resolved. Barnier has started to show some flexibility on this.
 
oldfrenchhorn said:
And how will you replace her? As I pointed out the numbers within the Tory MPs do not stack up for that option. The rump can warble on as much as they like, but they cannot remove her.
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If May refuses to take up the obvious path to a deal then the majority of Tory MP's will want her ditched. Once the selection is open to party members then we will ensure the most eurosceptic candidate is elected.
 
superhorns said:
If May refuses to take up the obvious path to a deal then the majority of Tory MP's will want her ditched. Once the selection is open to party members then we will ensure the most eurosceptic candidate is elected.
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Wishful thinking SH. Do you really think that there are the numbers to bring about a vote of no confidence? All the evidence from Westminster says there is not.
 
superhorns said:
You obviously recognise flawed economics from the silly Robbin's civil servant plan, that was clearly not acceptable weeks ago. Our senior civil servants reputation has been heavily tarnished.

The EU has indicated they will accept a Canada style deal once the Irish border issue can be resolved. Barnier has started to show some flexibility on this.
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Flawed maths - not flawed economics. They couldn't even get that right.
Oh yeah - but Diane Abbot.....
 
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