Treve

  • Please bear with us on the new site integration and fixing any known bugs over the coming days. If you can not log in please try resetting your password and check your spam box. If you have tried these steps and are still struggling email [email protected] with your username/registered email address
  • Log in now to remove adverts - no adverts at all to registered members!
Ron

Ron

Well-Known Member
Forum Moderator
Jan 25, 2011
51,353
17,568
113
France
I'm sure we are all waiting to hear some official news about the best filly in Europe/The World. Is she OK? Will she recover and race again? Will she run in and be good enough to win the Arc?

One question that I'm sure doesn't need asking is "Will she run in the KG?". From what we saw, there is no way she will be ready to run in the KG.

As I'm sure most saw, she was definitely looking jarred up when walking round after the race. Some may have even noticed that she was also looking very uncomfortable walking round before the race. The most likely scenario is that she had galloped since coming over from France and got jarred up on the firmish ground. Dettori has been quoted as "She didn't feel right going down to the start but hoped she would loosen up". Well I'm not sitting on the fence with this one and I think I'm agreeing with Joe that Dettori should have got off and had her checked over. The fact that she went off and galloped her heart out (and broke the course record) says a lot about her braveness but it can't have done her any good. The problem with getting jarred up is that it is not, in itself, an injury and may not show up as lameness at all. One has to see that the horse is "uncomfortable" because running, or even exercising a horse that is jarred up can result in very serious and long term injury.

Bearing in mind she broke the course record in Chantilly in June last year and wasn't seen out again until 3 months later (on soft going) it wouldn't be too surprising if she got a bit jarred up at Chantilly; although that is pure speculation on my part.

What is definite though is that she was jarred up before the Saturday race and (obviously) jarred up after the race. So the damage was started before the race and we can only hope that any additional damage is not so severe as to ruin her career. Hopefully, with rest, she may just about have time to recover in time for a small prep run (on suitable ground) before taking her chance in the Arc; it just depends on how much damage that race (which was clearly run in some discomfort) has done.

I think Madame C Head will be now be pretty upset with herself that she didn't pull her princess out of Saturday's race. How upset she will be with Dettori for not getting off is anyone's guess.
 
So she was jarred up, didnt handle the ground and still broke the old track record? How is that possible. Something doesnt add up, she obviously handles soft ground and while I doubt the extreme ground at Ascot was ideal for her, I also doubt it could effect her so badly.

Who knows, in my opinion that isnt the same filly and never will be. I overlooked it on the first run as it was first time out but thats twice now she has not showed anything resembling the purpose that she had last year. I dont think its a coincidence that Frankie was saying she doesnt do as much in her work as she did last season and im putting two and two together.

She is still going to be able to run to a high level because of her class but it will never be the same Treve. Why do they retire these champion 3yo's? Because there is always the risk of something like this happening and they are too valuable to risk.
 
I didn't say she didn't handle the ground Joe. Of course she handled it as she broke the track record but that, despite the fact she was uncomfortable. Of course it is possible. As I said it doesn't cause lameness. These horses will run even if it hurts sometimes. Anyone could see she was uncomfortable, before, during and after the race. She has definitely been jarred up at some point, whether it be in training or after arrival here and, as I speculated, it may not be the first time. It's a case now of how much more damage that race has done. I just hope she is OK.

Let's see what comes out after Madame C has finished with Dettori. It's pretty obvious to me that the filly should have been withdrawn; and they didn't even get her checked out. The poor horse was forced to run as fast as she physically could even though Dettori admitted she wasn't feeling right. Disgraceful. I have never been ante Dettori; but I am now.
 
I know you didnt say it Ron but others have. You might be right, you would know a lot more about things like that than me and I will take your word for it.
 
It's also quite possible that her Arc win wasn't quite what it seemed at the time. Previous and subsequent runs seem to suggest this may very well be the case.
 
I think it was a decent Arc, Orfevre is a good yardstick and he won a Group 1 by 8 lengths on his next start, Intello was a French Derby winner, Ruler Of The World won a poor Derby but went on to run a blinder in the Champion with Farh and CDA, Al Kazeem had won the Prince Of Wales and Eclipse, ive seen worse Arc's.

If The Fugue and Magician had been in there they would have been destroyed with the others, and can anyone honestly say that a bit more weight would have stopped Treve that day?

It was the way she was doing it more than what she was beating for me, the trip she had in the Arc would have beat the average horse but she still made that move and sprinted up the straight after pulling hard early and being wide all the way. In the French Oaks she cruised up and burst through a gap in a way that I have not seen a horse do before, she won by 4 lengths smashing the track record and the second went on to win the Irish Oaks.

I have not seen that same horse in two runs this year yet she has still ran to a very high level, The Fugue is a good filly in her own right and that was probably the performance of her life but she is not of the same class as the real Treve in my book. The Fugue has never wowed me in the way Treve has.

They say fillies can be strange, people who work with horses and know more than me about what goes on behind the scenes, maybe her heart just isnt in it like it was last year, and running two hard races on extremes of ground on her last two runs, I just cannot see how they can possibly get her back, especially if she is not in the same place mentally.
 
Most Arc winners seem to have a very troubled passage, isn't that just part of the big race? Two that spring to mind are Sea The Stars and Zarkava. Treve was very impressive in a good Arc for me, but she doesn't look the same horse this season and perhaps she hasn't progressed from her 3 year old campaign.
 
It's difficult to think she hasn't developed another 7lb since October (ie normal weight for age) but it's quite possible that other 3yos may have developed by more than her. It will be interesting to see what rating she gets after Saturday's race. Given that she broke the course record despite the discomfort one can only speculate at how good she may have been had she not been suffering. I wouldn't be at all surprised if Criquette Head has hauled Dettori over the coals as he may well have ruined her favourite filly. Interesting silence on the news front. I wonder if he will ever ride another horse of hers but we shall see. It's all a bit bitter I'm afraid.
 
Quite possible that she much prefers to run on softer ground, but will always try her best no matter what the ground is like. Her win in the French Oaks was followed by a 3 month layoff and she ran on soft or very soft ground until Ascot.

I hope she is not seriously injured and that we see her later in the year to defend her Arc crown
 
You're probably right lads. I guess I was thinking aloud more than anything else that she simply handled the soft ground in the Arc so much better than those behind like the Japanese horse. Don't feel it was a weak Arc at all, just that it played so much to her strengths more than the others.

Be nice to see her back it up to show she is a great unless yous are right that she has simply 'gone' at the game. Be sad if that's the case at 4 years old mind!
 
Ron said:
Let's see what comes out after Madame C has finished with Dettori. It's pretty obvious to me that the filly should have been withdrawn; and they didn't even get her checked out. The poor horse was forced to run as fast as she physically could even though Dettori admitted she wasn't feeling right. Disgraceful. I have never been ante Dettori; but I am now.
Click to expand...

I have no problem with Dettori generally and I think that he has been a good ambassador for the sport but the comments (or excuses) that he offered after the race made me think that he did have some serious questions to answer. If he did not feel that she was right cantering to the start, why did he not have the vet give her the once over at the start? If during the race he felt that there was something amiss, he should surely have given her an easier time and then when called before the stewards to account for his actions he could have offered valid reasons and the stewards would have ordered her examined by the vet.

Ron said:
It will be interesting to see what rating she gets after Saturday's race. Given that she broke the course record despite the discomfort one can only speculate at how good she may have been had she not been suffering. I wouldn't be at all surprised if Criquette Head has hauled Dettori over the coals as he may well have ruined her favourite filly. Interesting silence on the news front. I wonder if he will ever ride another horse of hers but we shall see. It's all a bit bitter I'm afraid.
Click to expand...

Dettori got the ride on Treve because he is the owner’s retained jockey; not Criquette Head-Maarek’s choice. He missed the Arc ride through injury.

On the news front I read in The Racing Post that she was going to the vets for a thorough examination as they all think there is some physical injury to explain. We will have to wait and see what is reported.

In the 1975 King George VI, the hat-trick seeking Dahlia was beaten five lengths and still beat the old course record. That was because Dick Hern ran two pacemakers on fast ground to try and set the race up for Bustino – and only just failed; however, it did not make Grundy, Bustino or Dahlia all-time greats. People generally quote fast times when it suits their argument so I do not think that the official handicapper will be rushing to mark The Fugue up enormously just on the time figures.
 
QuarterMoonII said:
........... I do not think that the official handicapper will be rushing to mark The Fugue up enormously just on the time figures.
Click to expand...
I doubt anyone makes any judgement based solely on time figures QM.

Grundy, Bustino and Dahlia were all bloody good horses though and what a race that was. Fond memories of that one.
 
They said earlier today that they think she may have pulled a muscle in her back. Apparently she reared several times in the pre-parade ring,

Criquette is a lovely lady and her horses mean the world to her. She is not one to be brash and talk up herself, or her horses. She is the kind of person that says very little but what she does say is always worth listening to.
 
It is possible of course that she just may not have trained on over the winter and has regressed somewhat, yet still retains enough to be a very good horse, just not what she was at the end of last season. She has been beaten twice this year but in good races in which there was no disgrace in losing. I am not sure about the muscle business in that I am not sure she could have run as well as she did if that were the case. She actually ran one hell of a race in a very good time, maybe she just has regressed and we are not accepting that she is not leaving everything for dead as we hoped she would.

One thing is for sure however, last season she was brilliant. She may find that level again in the autumn with give under foot or she may struggle at the top table this year but lets take nothing away from a great horse.

From a punting point of view Treve let me down for a really nice trixi with the two Tuesday winners, but I have no complaints in that there was no jockey error, no hard luck story and she was just not good enough on the day. We seem to be searching for a reason she did not win but that is racing, what we expect does not always happen.
 
No need to search Blue. She had every reason to get pulled up yet still ran well.

I agree about CH Princess. She will be very upset that the horse was not taken out. She may have pulled a muscle in the back during the race; there is no telling what she was doing to compensate for the problems she was having. Don't forget that we have it from the man on her back that she didn't feel right going to the post and she could be seen to be uncomfortable even before going down. I'll wager she has been galloped on firm ground in training and/or since arriving in England. Everything has confirmed that she was not in a fit state to run without risking herself. Dettori should have got off. There is no excuse for Dettori on this one and he is not on my Christmas card list. No, no, he is not.
 
I am not so sure there was anything amiss Ron as a couple of things don't add up.

1. If she had pulled a muscle I understand that horses will run for you even if in pain but would she really have been able to break the course record in coming third in a group one race when not sound? She may not have enjoyed the ground but that's different to needing pulling up because she is jarred up or has pulled a muscle. I say if she had the issues being suggested she should be 5 lengths last and not beating course records as if this were the case how far would she have broken that record if sound. Previously she got beat well and truly by CDA and there was no suggestion of her being jarred up, this performance was clearly better than her previous outing and so she has actually come on for the run, she has improved from her previous outing despite having an issue apparently. She may not have liked the ground and come back a little sore from it but In my mind she ran her race but is not the horse she was last year, which was a spectacular one.

2. If Dettori is being quoted correctly and is also not just making an excuse for a run that was less than expected then he is indeed condemning himself and opening himself to the criticism that you feel he is due. I have to believe however that a horseman like himself knows the difference between a filly who is not on her favoured ground and one that has an issue, and that if he had believed she had an issue he would have at least got off at the start to check. Would he have run the best filly he is likely to sit on all season if even suspecting something was wrong?

When she lost to CDA was it not suggested it was too soft for her? and yet the good to firm of Wednesday was now too firm? She ran well in third, she broke the course record in doing so and clearly retains ability but could it not be that it's just not as much ability as we hoped. If this is not the case and Dettori ran her when suspecting something wrong then i'm with you in that he should be held accountable, but I think she is just not as good. let's wait and see as she will have other chances to prove herself later in the season, and no doubt on her favoured ground.
 
Completely agree with Bluesky and not sure I will trust any story or excuse that comes out because I dont think they will admit she did not train on if that is the case.

An injury would explain why she was not travelling after 6f but how then was she able to finish so close and why was she not pulled up.

I think not only has she not improved, she has lost something she had last year, despite both runs being on two extremes. Ground would not have stopped her last year.
 
Well we will just have to agree to disagree won't we. Being jarred up does not stop a horse running; it makes it uncomfortable. As regards the pulled muscle, I have no idea at what stage, or if, that happened. A slightly pulled back muscle will cause some discomfort but will not cause lameness nor stop the horse from running. Obviously, if severe, that is a different kettle of fish. The discomfort we spotted before the race could have been caused by minor jarring, slightly pulled back muscle or, indeed, just stiffness. I believe Dettori was "hoping" it was the last of those and that she would loosen up in the race. What is indisputable is that she was in some discomfort before the race.

As regards the argument that she ran below form against CDA. I think that just because she ran well on soft in the Arc does not mean she can be at her best in Very Soft which was the case against CDA. You are talking about a filly that, first time out on extreme going which, incidentally, she had never raced on before, first time out, earlier in the year than ever before, against a fully fit top horse who revels in the mud, having its third race and over a favorable trip. And she got beaten a nk, just held by the winner. She may well have won had it been 12f.

For her to run a race like that on very soft ground first time out and then break the course record over a distance maybe too short when clearly in some discomfort she is some filly and I can't see how she can be thought not to have trained on.

I really hope she recovers and is able to run again (without risk) because she is a World beater as a 4yo not a 3yo that hasn't trained on. She will not race or train on firm ground again I'm sure of that.
 
Sorry to be a pedant, but all the talk of “course records” at Ascot is pretty hollow. The “course records” at Ascot only exist since the place reopened in 2006 after being completely rebuilt.

When it is next mentioned that the 2013 Prix de Diane was run in a record time breaking the old mark by two seconds, it should be pointed out that it was the “race record” that was broken, not the course record. If you watch the video of the race, those that see a far bit of French racing will notice the strong pace that the race was run at as opposed to the normal crawl and sprint in the straight of French racing.

If the vets do not find anything then it will be back to excuses. It may be that the owner decides to retire her, although he has nothing to gain in doing so this late in the year. If she is seen on a racecourse again it will be twelve furlongs and ultimately she will go to the Prix Vermeille and the Prix de l’Arc de Triomphe looking for repeats of last year.
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Top Bottom
Back