1. Log in now to remove adverts - no adverts at all to registered members!

Time to phase out the experienced trio

Discussion in 'Manchester United' started by marc1_007, Oct 1, 2012.

  1. marc1_007

    marc1_007 Member

    Joined:
    Feb 1, 2011
    Messages:
    71
    Likes Received:
    0
    SAF got rid of berbatov because he was not quick enough to play in the quick passing and quick moving uptempo style he wanted to adopt but that is a bit of a double standard, considering the first choice midfielders in important games always seem to include carrick, scholes and Giggs.

    First last week at Anfield, Liverpool totally ripped the midfield to shreds and only lost that game because they went down to 10 men, and even with a man down they were still the better team and SAF did not make a change to gain control of the midfield considering it was a liverpool midfielder that got sent off.

    Then we have the game against spurs where this time Giggs was moved out to the left and the trio in midfield was scholes, carrick and kagawa. What followed in that eventful first half was a demonstration of midfield domination by power, movement, and athleticism by the spurs trio, totally making the Utd trio especially carrick and scholes look like spent pensioners, and the main problem for kagawa was that he always seemed to get muscled off the ball.

    Then in the second half spurs retreated having gone 2 goals up and when scholes does not get closed down, he becomes Xavi as he can execute any pass in the game be it short or long range and totally dominate a game and giggs obviously went off for Rooney and kagawa was shifted to the left.

    As Tottenham got totally dominated in that half you could see that AVB was concerned about scholes and even called dembele to give him strict instructions to get to scholes, and later taking him off for huddlestone because he was exhausted. But what really astonished me was that SAF brought on Welbeck and Chicharito when one of anderson or cleverly should have come on for carrick, because by then spurs could not even cross the half way line and a midfielder who can join the attack from deep would have been a much better option than a striker as you could see with the way the game was going but anyway its done now.

    My main point is that when ronaldo and rooney and even giggs were younger, they had a lot of terrible games, but the one constant thing SAF always did was continue playing them regardless of whether they had a good or bad game until they became a lot more consistent and turned in to the world class stars they became, but with anderson, nani and cleverley especially when they play a game, regardless of whether they play well or not they are usually rested the next game and if not then definitely by the third game.

    The only time that they played consistently was at the devastating start of last season when spurs, arsenal, chelsea, bolton were blown away and then there was the great comeback against city in the shield. And when the injuries came, by the time they had come back, SAF only trusted the experienced trio of Carrick, scholes and giggs and that was that.

    One game that forever stays in my memory was the dec 31 game against blackburn when utd were decimated by injuries and he preferred to play park and rafael in central midfield instead of giving pogba a try, what did he have to lose especially as blackburn were also ravaged by injuries, and i still believe that decision as well as the scholes coming out of retirement was what made pogba decide he had no future at the club.

    Over the last few seasons , utd have had one of the best reserve, youth team in the country, but they never seem to get a chance in the first team, players such as pogba, fryers and morrison who are gone now, petrucci, tunnicliffe, lingard, the keane twins, wooton, vermilj and brady. These are very good young players and given a chance especially when there are injuries they will want to show they belong at that level, but SAF prefers to put experienced players in the wrong positions like carrick in central defence or that fateful game against blackburn, or even valencia at right back as well as welbeck on the left wing.

    Is it not better to just put the players in their right positions and if there are injuries, surely there is a young player chomping at the bits to get a game with the first team.

    This team now could possibly win a premier league title but definitely not a champions league, so is it not better to start moulding a new team and integrating the outstanding young players at the club and not always rely on the pensioners, at least let us see if they have what it takes to have a career at the club.
     
    #1
  2. HRH Custard VC

    HRH Custard VC National Car Park Attendant

    Joined:
    Jan 25, 2011
    Messages:
    22,835
    Likes Received:
    8,438
    Can you re-write it so its easy to read.
     
    #2
  3. UnitedinRed

    UnitedinRed Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Sep 11, 2012
    Messages:
    25,308
    Likes Received:
    1,218
    .
     
    #3
  4. gaf 71

    gaf 71 Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    May 29, 2011
    Messages:
    1,490
    Likes Received:
    54
    You say he didn't make a change to control midfield. I thought he brought Scholes on at half time, which gave you a lot more control of midfield (compared to the first half) v Liverpool.
     
    #4
  5. UnitedinRed

    UnitedinRed Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Sep 11, 2012
    Messages:
    25,308
    Likes Received:
    1,218
    imo had we started with a midfield of Cleverly and Anderson against Liverpool and Spurs we would of had 6 points.

    Midfields need energy these days, energy to close down teams and we lacked it in both games. Scholes is a brilliant passer, the best in the league but make him run and hes useless.

    Next PL game I want to see this line up


    -----------De Gea-------------
    Rafael--Rio-----Evans---Buttner
    -------Cleverly---Ando---------
    Nani--------------------Kagawa
    ------------Rooney------------
    ------van Persie---------------

    Like to see a team dominate us then, full of energy, pace, flair, ability and firepower. Defence is as it is because we have our annual injury crisis but we would have so much of the ball and be on the attack constantly. Thats the team we need starting, put Smalling and Vidic in defence when fit and that is one hell of a team.
     
    #5
  6. marc1_007

    marc1_007 Member

    Joined:
    Feb 1, 2011
    Messages:
    71
    Likes Received:
    0
    usually in the last 30 mins of a game when the opposition has slowed down and are no longer pressing like they were at the start of the game, that is when scholes usually comes in to his element, but when the game is moving at a faster speed usually earlier in the game, he becomes a passenger especially when the other team has possession and he is also not the same player when he is closed down much quicker like spurs did in the first half
     
    #6
  7. TuckersLaw

    TuckersLaw Member

    Joined:
    Jan 25, 2011
    Messages:
    361
    Likes Received:
    0
    I agree with most of the article but I think it can be simplified further.

    You can't play Scholes, Carrick and Giggs together anymore.

    Scholes should play, when fit. Giggs should play a cameo role. Carrick needs to make way for Cleverly or Anderson.

    Cleverly and Anderson were outstanding the last time they started and had a run of games together (Aug & Sept 2011) and I see no reason why Fergie shouldn't revert to that set-up when they are both fit.
     
    #7
  8. UnitedinRed

    UnitedinRed Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Sep 11, 2012
    Messages:
    25,308
    Likes Received:
    1,218
    That they were
     
    #8
  9. TuckersLaw

    TuckersLaw Member

    Joined:
    Jan 25, 2011
    Messages:
    361
    Likes Received:
    0
    Next PL game I want to see this line up


    -----------De Gea-------------
    Rafael--Rio-----Evans---Buttner
    -------Cleverly---Ando---------
    Nani--------------------Kagawa
    ------------Rooney------------
    ------van Persie---------------




    <ok> Agree with this. It would be nice to see Smalling and Jones fit back into that line-up too.
     
    #9
  10. marc1_007

    marc1_007 Member

    Joined:
    Feb 1, 2011
    Messages:
    71
    Likes Received:
    0
    Scholes was outstanding in the second half on saturday, but my problem with him is that when he starts games he does not have the athleticism or dynamism to dominate games from the beginning when the opposing midfielders have been given strict instructions to close him down but when the game reaches the hour mark and the opponent's midfield is tired from all the pressing that is usually when scholes takes over games and because the other midfield is tiring, they can't get close enough to him



     
    #10

  11. Caesar

    Caesar Member

    Joined:
    Jan 24, 2011
    Messages:
    365
    Likes Received:
    8
    If you start with Cleverley and Anderson we are still probably going to have the same problem that we are having now and during last season. Gapping holes in the midfield. They didnt provide any real defensive cover for the back four.
     
    #11
  12. UnitedinRed

    UnitedinRed Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Sep 11, 2012
    Messages:
    25,308
    Likes Received:
    1,218
    That is the issue with starting them.

    We basically have a choice, get outplayed or at least bossed in midfield in many games or play a risky game where we will tear through teams with ease but be left wide open.

    Know which as a fan I want to see but Fergie as a manager doesnt have the luxury of being a fan <laugh>
     
    #12
  13. UnitedinRed

    UnitedinRed Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Sep 11, 2012
    Messages:
    25,308
    Likes Received:
    1,218
    -----------De Gea-------------
    Rafael--Rio-----Evans---Buttner
    -------Carrick*---Ando**------
    Nani--------------------Kagawa
    ------------Rooney------------
    ------van Persie---------------

    * Fletcher
    ** Cleverly

    We could line up like that. Assuming Fletcher is ready to play a part he could play but we need to have an energetic MF with them.

    Or scrap wingers completely and line up like

    -----------De Gea-------------
    Rafael--Rio-----Evans---Buttner
    -----------Carrick--------------
    ------Anderson---Kagawa------
    ------------Nani----------------
    ------Rooney---van Persie------

    More narrow and completely against our usual methods but could work well if it click. Does mean Valencia cant really play as this requires use of both feet. He can do that but hes way behind Nani and Kagawa and even Ando in that respect. You could drop Nani and add welbeck and have a flowing front 3 .

    I like the look of that actually.
     
    #13
  14. marc1_007

    marc1_007 Member

    Joined:
    Feb 1, 2011
    Messages:
    71
    Likes Received:
    0
    the one thing that concerns me with wing play this season is that RVP though he is taller than rooney, rooney has scored a lot of headers and it could be argued that rooney is pretty good in the air but van persie came from a club that hardly ever crossed high into the box so he will probably expect a lot of the ball to his feet or at least to the back post like the first goal against southampton.

    And this is where i saw SAF trying to buy lucas moura because even though he plays wide he is not a conventional winger and he mainly pulls the ball back after beating his full back or crosses low and hard across the face of the goal or try to pick someone out in the box.

    Nani's inconsistencies especially this season has been annoying but you can argue that his confidence is at its lowest ebb since he has been at the club and the best thing that could have happened to him was the injury to young and valencia as SAF has no choice but to play him so maybe he might play his way in to top form because i still insist that he is the player best suited to link up with kagawa and van persie as he does not make his main objective to get to the byline and cross the ball like valencia does.

    Nani is able to go on the inside and play quick one two passes and give different options which valencia does not usually do, now if SAF had completed the signing of lucas, then nani would be surplus to requirements and if he stayed, would have hardly gotten any games but for now i believe he is key in the direction the club wants to go, because even though i think valencia is a great winger almost a throwback to the great andrei kanchelskis, in the game against fulham he crossed the ball in to the box 14 times and nothing came out of any of them. Now with a striker like Carroll or even Rooney they will thrive on that kind of service, but with van persie i seriously doubt that.
     
    #14
  15. Caesar

    Caesar Member

    Joined:
    Jan 24, 2011
    Messages:
    365
    Likes Received:
    8
    Fair point. It would make exciting games which I am all for.
     
    #15
  16. Chief

    Chief Northern Simpleton
    Forum Moderator

    Joined:
    May 17, 2011
    Messages:
    32,765
    Likes Received:
    18,306
    On the basis that ALL our players are fit, this is the line I would pick as first choice;


    ------------De Gea-------------
    Rafael---Vidic-----Smalling---Buttner
    -------------Jones--------------------
    -------Carrick-----Kagawa-----------
    NaniorValencia-----------------Rooney-----
    -----------van Persie---------------


    Plenty options at sub with Linergaard, Welbeck, Hernandez, Cleverly, Evra, Ferdinand, Evans, Fletcher, Young, ValenciaorNani, Anderson and Powell. (notice no Scholes and Giggs)


    We have to have a dynamic player in centre mid who can also tackle and track back and that player is Jones.

    Otherwise, we must buy someone in the window.
     
    #16
  17. UnitedinRed

    UnitedinRed Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Sep 11, 2012
    Messages:
    25,308
    Likes Received:
    1,218
    Jones has the potential to play that role but as hes often injured his development will be stuttered so a new signing might just have to happen regardless.

    Interesting line up though Ruff, are you playing a front 3 or 1 up top with wide players supporting?

    Midfield does look decent, plenty of ability and strength. Keeping the ball wouldnt be a problem but winning it it back? Maybe chuck an Ando in there ahead of Carrick in some games. Agree with Buttner, impressed me alot in the few games hes played, seems quite the find.

    How do you want RVP to play? As an out and out striker, poaching goals and playing within the 18 or tracking back and offering support but leaving us a little short up top. I want him ready to score at every opportunity.
     
    #17
  18. Red Hadron Collider

    Red Hadron Collider The Hammerhead

    Joined:
    Mar 2, 2011
    Messages:
    56,989
    Likes Received:
    9,486
    Yeah. Paragraphs would be useful <ok>
     
    #18
  19. Chief

    Chief Northern Simpleton
    Forum Moderator

    Joined:
    May 17, 2011
    Messages:
    32,765
    Likes Received:
    18,306


    Well ideally i'd have him as main striker with Rooney off him in a front two but then the rest of the formation doesn't fit so Rooney plays slightly out wide left like he did when Ronaldo was essentially main striker.

    It negated Rooney to a small extent but with Ronaldo scoring so many it didn't matter, I see RVP as the main goal scorer now as he's the less flexible so is centre forward.

    I considered a flat out 4 4 2 with Nani and Kagawa as the wide players and Jones and Cleverly or Carrick as CM but we'd be over run so we have to have a three man CM and a front three. It looks like it lacks width but the players have to go out wide accordingly, Kagawa can move wide and Nani and Rooney would need to be able to.

    If Valencia were playing he would be flat out right wing. Young is there to step in to various positions when needed and the two young strikers, Welbeck and Hernandez, are essentially back up's.
     
    #19
  20. UnitedinRed

    UnitedinRed Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Sep 11, 2012
    Messages:
    25,308
    Likes Received:
    1,218
    Its worrying Ruff. Check the Clunge v United match threacd, posted a link in there thats got some worrying quotes :(
     
    #20

Share This Page