Just as an opening disclaimer I should point out that although I know a lot of you will agree with them, these are solely my views and they are not aimed at anyone particular on this forum - unless of course it was you I was conversing with on the train on Saturday night and in which case I feel sorry for you Ok, take a deep breath and here we go.... Now that's out of the way, let me just say we don't half have some complete muppets as fans, seriously! What has prompted this thread was my train journey back to London after the game, packed in like sardines as we were with standing room only on the 20:00 from Norwich. Along the way I had three separate conversations with different fans, the first and last with Hammers and were both conversations that I enjoyed as they were full of realism, plenty of sensible thinking and mutual respect for both clubs. However the one I had with four Canary fans (three old boys and one about my age in his late 30's) who were sitting together just blew my mind with the sheer ignorance, short-sightedness and obvious dislike for Hootun streaming from every pore. I only started chatting to them after I overheard the most outspoken (fella about the same age as me) of the four chatting to a West Ham fan about how the manager just has to be sacked as he "is single-handedly ruining the club I love" and I thought to myself I can't let that go and let's find out what is going on between the ears of this lot. The following statements made up the nucleus of this fella's argument, and below each I have summarised the response I gave to him - which didn't take me a great deal of effort as some of the points were so ridiculously wrong it was laughable! "We're just so negative all the time and Hughton has beaten all the attacking football we had under Lambert out of us" - Really?? Are we really that negative this year?? I concurred that last season wasn't pretty to watch, and yes in many of the games we did set up very defensively as to stifle the opposition - games like the wins against Man United and Arsenal for example. I also pointed out that these tactics of last season led us to an 11th place finish, the highest for twenty years so how was that a failure? I also pointed out just how many clubs this season are adopting a similar approach, putting defense above all, such as the Hulls, Cardiffs, West Ham etc and also how we are not playing like that this season and that this year has shown a quite obvious improvement in our attacking play and intention. "Didn't you see how rubbish we were against Man United and Man City?" - Yes I did, we were shocking in both games against teams full to the brim with international quality who both did a job on us good and proper. However to judge us on games at the Etihad and Old Trafford is ludicrous, those games won't define our season and what is more important is the way we come back and react to those performance, particularly in the home games - like the one we had just won 3-1 about an hour previously for example. "We will go down this year if we keep playing as badly as we are, no question" - Really?? Are you not aware that in the first ten games we have played six of the top seven and seven of the top ten? We've been away to Arsenal, Spurs and Man City and have Chelsea at home out of the way with most of the bottom half still to play twice? If you discount the games against the 'big six', so only counting the games we can realistically expect to take points from we, have won 3, drawn 2 and lost 2 - and the two we lost against Hull and Villa were games that on another day we could easily have won. Is that really obvious relegation form?? "We only won today because of a lucky penalty" - And didn't we only lose against Hull because of an unlucky penalty? Or is that forgotten about? And didn't we only fail to beat Cardiff because their keeper played out of his skin in a game that we absolutely battered them in? "We should get Malky Mackay or Di Matteo in" - Why, because they are really exciting managers who play fluid, attacking football that is easy on the eye and will get the fans on their feet all game? Or is it because that is exactly what they are not like? Did they watch the Cardiff game and see how Mackay was happy to shut up shop and settle for a nil nil, despite playing one of the so called worst teams in the league? Would that really be an improvement?? "We only stayed up last year because our last two rivals were on the beach and weren't interested" - This wasn't really worthy of a full and proper response so I merely just laughed at him and told the fella to stop being so absolutely ridiculous as it made him sound embarrassing. "He never gives our players any credit and is only interested in praising our rivals" - So I asked him if he was in the dressing room before all the games, or on the training ground when they are talking tactics and preparations for the next fixture, and if he wasn't then how the hell does he know what the manager says to the players if all he has to go on is what he says to the press and media? Anyone who thinks that the two are the same thing and that he says the same things in both situations clearly hasn't got a clue - though by now I was realising that this would be a perfect description for this guy I was talking to. "We need someone big up front to hassle the defenders" - Er, did you not just watch the game? Did you not see the ground covered by our 70+ caps for Sweden international Johan Elmander today - who actually is a rather large physical presence as big as Holty - or how he pulled the hammers defenders all over the place in the second half? If not then what game were you watching exactly?? "He should never have let Grant Holt leave" - Grant Holt wanted to leave, in fact he wanted to leave the season before but Hootun managed to convince him to stay another year, and then this year he got his wish and did leave. Get over it. Oh, and how many goals has he banged in for Wigan against Championship defenders by the way? Then we got onto the crux of this guy's gripe, and I fear that is the one that the majority of the Hootun Out crew have brainwashed themselves with…. TO BE CONTINUED.........
Then we got onto the crux of this guy's gripe, and I fear that is the one that the majority of the Hootun Out crew have brainwashed themselves withâ¦. "We never played like this under Paul Lambert" - Er, at times yes we did my friend. Believe it or not the football under Lambert wasn't always this free-flowing, swashbuckling brand that some people genuinely think it was. Yes we scored more goals under Lambert, but I remember some games being absolutely atrocious to watch, and we also took some proper hammerings under him. Also two of the three seasons under Lambert were against League One and Championship players - not against the likes of Ozil, Aguero, Wilshere, Hazard, Silva, Cazorla etc etc. And anyway, he wanted to leave and did so this is entirely irrelevant anyway! "Paul Lambert is one of the best managers in Europe and will go on to be one of the greatest managers in history" - REALLY??? Dear me, some people are so far up Lambert's backside it's unbelievable! I asked the chap exactly how brilliantly Villa have been getting on this season? And where they finished last year? He was very smug in pointing out that they had just beaten a Cardiff side that we had failed to, and I pointed out that yes they had, but it was also the first goal they'd scored in almost eight hours of football! "Ah, but they have had loads of injuries this season" was what he came back with which almost made me spit out my mouthful of Old Speckled hen! So we've not had any injuries ourselves then? Muppet! "Lambert performed miracles keeping Villa up last season" - Did he?? Was it a miracle he performed that kept them up? Or was it Christian Benteke, a guy who has been valued in the £25m+ bracket who scored all the goals to keep a very poor Villa side up? I then pointed to the time they had under Martin O'Neill just three or so year ago (and before McLeish) when they had managed to finish in 6th place three seasons running. In relation I'd hardly call 15th place on 41 points "a miracle". At this point I made it clear that Lambert had been fantastic for us, absolutely brilliant and if he has achieved miracles anywhere it was with us, however I also pointed out that his time has now gone, he was perfect for us at that time but that time is no longer and the sooner fans like him start to realise that the better. He is a very, very good manager who did a superb job, but how anyone can say on the back of that that he's going to be one of the "greatest managers in history" is just plain ridiculous. Owen Coyle was lauded as the next big thing a few years back when he took Burnley up, Nigel Adkins was as well after the job he did at Southampton, I even remember reading how brilliant Ady Boothroyd was when he was manager of Watford Where are they all now? I'm not directly comparing them with Lambert, and who knows he very well might end up with a far more illustrious career than any of those, but my point is that all those managers were perfect for the clubs they were with at the time, however that is no barometer for success in the future - and certainly not on the scale this guy was talking about! I just find it so frustrating when City fans find excuses for Lambert but are ready to batter Hootun with the very same issues. It's mindless, it's ignorant and it's just plain wrong! Interestingly throughout this debate the three old boys, who were chipping in with anti-Hootun comments to start with, had started nodding to each of my points and agreeing with me - which at the risk of making myself sound a touch arrogant - is exactly the reaction I should have received as I was clearly talking common sense! The younger guy however was clearly having none of it, he's burned his bridges as far as Hootun goes, and wasn't having a bar of anything I was saying. The best bit was when he looked up at me, stared at my scarf and then said he was "just checking to see if you actually are a Norwich fan!!" Thankfully around this point (I think we might have been pulling into Stowmarket, or dare I say it maybe even Ipswich ) it was time for them to get off and head into the night. The guy's final point to me summed it all up, he simply just said: "I can't stand paying money to watch us win like that, it's bloody terrible" and I realised that I had been wasting my time with him for the previous half an hour or so. We had just won a massive game of football 3-1 against one of our realistic rivals that was huge for the club all the way from the players to the terraces and everyone in between to lift us out of the bottom three and this muppet "couldn't stand it". To me these kind of people are the very worst type of football fan, they have made their mind up and ainât for budging, and they try to spread their negative propaganda to suit their own pathetic little agendas. I donât know the basis for these agendas or why our manager is so disliked by so many of our fans, but I do know it all makes me wants him to be a success more than ever, and more than he already has been to shut these muppets up, but in reality I know they will be sitting there for it to all go wrong, for years if thatâs as long as it takes, ready and waiting with their fingers on the âI told you so buttonâ. Itâs sad; it really, really is. I know all clubs have this type of fan, but I do get embarrassed - and clearly rather narked - when I come into contact with our fans who think like this. And breatheâ¦.. End. Of. Rant.
He checked your scarf Hilarious. Though I'd had jumped off at Diss and walked the rest of the way home, I think! These twats could always save themselves a few quid by NOT GOING to home games while our worst ever manager ever is at the helm. Many casual supporters without said agendas would love to be able to get to the occasional match!
Munky - sad to say, I don´t think you´ll fnd any club in the country that hasn´t got their own version of your travelling companions above. For whatever reason, there are always some who make their minds up about a manager or a player, almost before they´ve arrived and won´t be budged. Call it what you will, stubbornness, bloody-mindedness, or just an unwillingness to accept that they might be wrong, but you certainly did seem to find a prime example. Would have loved to have been a fly on the wall, as I can´t imagine you kept nearly as calm and collected as you appear to have done from your report.
The thing I really can't understand is why Lambert is treated like such a hero. I hold him a in high regard because of what he did for the club, but the manner of his departure is sore for me. He left Norwich by his own doing, and I've moved on since then but clearly some fans haven't. I think if Hughton had been the manager that got us promoted and Lambert had taken over after we were already in the Prem he would not be nearly so popular, regardless of these pathetic gripes about attacking football.
Oh on the contrary, it was a pretty calm debate throughout, no raised voices, or insults or anything like that. Ok, I did have my patronising hat on at times during it, but I thought as some of the stuff he was coming out with was so ridiculous I gave it the contempt it deserved - and anyway, I was happy as Larry, three points and a few ales down me by then - it was a great Saturday night We all said our farewells and wished each other well as they got off. It was then that I had the best of the three conversations with the second set of Hammers fans who had been listening in and congratulated me for being the sensible voice of reason. One of the guys described the main protaganist as "a sheep" which I thought an excellent description for him - just going along with what 'the bloke down the pub' says without actually thinking for himself about what actually happens before his very eyes. Baaaaaaaa, baaaaaaaaa Another interesting aside one of the West Ham fans said to me was that without any shadow of doubt, the Villa team they had seen the week before was confortably the worst they had seen all season - even worse than us in the first half so that has to tell you something about all these miracles Mr. Lambert is conjuring up at Villa Park
Sounds like my Dad. Drives me nuts. Just spouts a load of similar unsubstantiated drivel quoting from the emotionally charged Canary Call. He's an Alpha male and just goes on and on and on. Bless him. Love him.
that is very funny munky interesting comments from the hammers, i know a few hammers fans and they are all very level-headed (compared to some un-named other London clubs fans)
Top post Munky, I must had had virtually the same conversation with a couple of blokes at work who do not go to games and never have who suddenly became city fans along with promotion. Sheep is a fair and accurate description.
These simple rules must be obeyed in any discussion... otherwise its just two (or more) people saying their opinions at each other...
That doesn´t actually surprise me in the slightest either, Munky, for all his qualities he was by no means the ´God´ some people would have him be, and as you rightly pointed out to the sheep, he had several disasters with us as well, and he´s certainly not exactly pulling up any trees at Villa yet. I´m still convinced that we´ve done as well, if not better, than them, out of the deal.
I think Lambert was an outstanding manager at our club but he was helped by circumstance and having a squad with incredible spirit and determination. That carried us into the Prem but it was always going to be a hard job maintaining that. I don't know why he decided to move on, whether he didn't feel up to the job or just wanted a different challenge, but since he has left he hasn't exactly set the world alight. I just wish these "fans" could move on rather that having to constantly hark back to Lambert at every turn.
Very good summary 'cotb'. Lambert was the right manager for this club at the right time and his idea that we would score more goals than our opponents meant that football was exciting to watch MOST of the time - I'm not sure that we would have stayed up last season, by playing that same style, but we'll never know. I remember however when we played Sunderland away during his tenure, that was as an inept performance as I've had to endure and our players seemed totally lacking in desire to even challenge our opponents and we lost 3-0 with hardly a decent shot on goal - I wish all those 'fans' who are baying for Hughton to be sacked could be forced to watch that game again!!!!
