Off Topic The Politics Thread

[KooPeeArr]

I'm not sure the main terms will be that easy to arrive at. Obviously, there's an impasse at present on freedom of movement and single market. It's simple to say, ok, that's the agreement, neither of them apply to the UK and therefore World Trade Rules and tariffs. But I can't see Merkel agreeing to that, if it damages German industry, particularly motor cars. Anything agreed tentatively, has to be agreed with all member states presumably. It's going to be lengthy.

And I don't necessarily think anti-EU parties in Europe will hold back from pressing for their own referendem on the grounds they want to see if the UK sinks or swims

I do have this feeling that even the Brexit Tories aren't as convinced of their stance as they were a week ago and would snap the EU's hands off at a Single Market result whatever the outcome. I also think the powers over the Channel know this and will just stand firm.

It's just a feeling though.

 

[Bush Rhino]

Financially we will miss Scotland

Finding ways to spend that extra 9bn a year is a bit of a headache.

 

[rangercol]

No. I have no idea whether you are a racist or not and made no such accusation. I was very clear in my question. If you are a racist just say so. This is a forum after all. It is simply disappointing that you chose to be evasive in seeing those acts for what they were. 85 acts of nutjob racism. You may see this as a minor spike and any condemnation of it as hysterical. Frankly I find your unwillingness to condemn it as disturbing. Even now, there seems to be no sense of outrage at the behaviour of some of your compatriots. Surely you don't subscribe to the "boys will be boys " and "it's laddish behaviour, that's all" school of thought.

Still no apology I see. Oh well, only to be expected I suppose.
I completely condemn all racism wherever it occurs, but I maintain that there is a huge problem in our country concerning immigration.
The extreme right wing racists are a problem no doubt, but I have to say that people like you are the biggest cause of the race tensions in this country. You immediately decide that anyone who says immigration is a problem must have racist leanings.
Millions of decent, law abiding people in this country, many of them immigrants themselves are concerned at the levels of immigration and the effect on local services and their way of life.
People like you are to blame for the tensions that we see today. Shutting off all debate with cries of racism have brought us to this point.

I hope you realise the part you've played in all this.
(This also goes for Chaz and Oslo who liked your post that was directed at me)

 

[GoldhawkRoad]

I do have this feeling that even the Brexit Tories aren't as convinced of their stance as they were a week ago and would snap the EU's hands off at a Single Market result whatever the outcome. I also think the powers over the Channel know this and will just stand firm.

It's just a feeling though.

There are bound to be some wobbly knees even among Brexiteers, but when I last looked, markets were stablising which should help. I just cannot see how any Tory prime minister can agree to unqualified freedom of movement, when this was such an important issue in the referendum. They'd be hard pressed to face the public and wouldn't last beyond the 2020 general election (assuming there isn't one earlier).

It really is a case of the Rock meeting the Hard Place. As I say, my bet is that since Merkel has domestic considerations and her own position to consider, she will not want to do anything to damage German industry, so somehow she will have to get the reciprocal imposition of tariffs between the UK and EU member states off the table.

 

[ELLERS]

Finding ways to spend that extra 9bn a year is a bit of a headache.

Yeah agree i think Beth is wrong there. They get a lot from us. My mum always says "if Scotland is so great why do all their stars live and work outside their country"? She has a point.

 

[GoldhawkRoad]

No. I have no idea whether you are a racist or not and made no such accusation. I was very clear in my question. If you are a racist just say so. This is a forum after all. It is simply disappointing that you chose to be evasive in seeing those acts for what they were. 85 acts of nutjob racism. You may see this as a minor spike and any condemnation of it as hysterical. Frankly I find your unwillingness to condemn it as disturbing. Even now, there seems to be no sense of outrage at the behaviour of some of your compatriots. Surely you don't subscribe to the "boys will be boys " and "it's laddish behaviour, that's all" school of thought.

You should not be throwing accusations of racism around, even by implication. Comments like "If you are a racist just say so" are borderline defamatory by innuendo. Anyone who knows Col by his posts, will know you are a million miles off the mark.

There's an infinite difference between

1. concern for the strains upon UK society due to huge and uncontrolled numbers coming into the country annually, and

2. hatred of foreigners, or prejudice, discrimination, or antagonism directed against someone of a different race based upon superiority of the antagonist's race.

 

[rangercol]

Financially we will miss Scotland

The exact opposite is true Beth.

 

[rangercol]

You should not be throwing accusations of racism around, even by implication. Comments like "If you are a racist just say so" are borderline defamatory by innuendo. Anyone who knows Col by his posts, will know you are a million miles off the mark.

There's an infinite difference between

1. concern for the strains upon UK society due to huge and uncontrolled numbers coming into the country annually, and

2. hatred of foreigners, or prejudice, discrimination, or antagonism directed against someone of a different race based upon superiority of the antagonist's race.

Thanks for the support mate.
Yorkshire and those that liked his post are the problem.

 

[kiwiqpr]

Yeah agree i think Beth is wrong there. They get a lot from us. My mum always says "if Scotland is so great why do all their stars live and work outside their country"? She has a point.

Have you just moved back home ellers
I think that's the second time you've quoted her recently

 

[ELLERS]

Have you just moved back home ellers
I think that's the second time you've quoted her recently

I know. My mum lives abroad (a bit like a Scottish star) and will be visiting me in the Summer so many phone calls this week and Brexit keeps coming up.

 

[kiwiqpr]

She sounds very wise ellers

 

[kiwiqpr]

How is the FTSE doing

 

[Bush Rhino]

How is the FTSE doing

The 100 has bounced back
The 250 continues steady recovery.

The trouble was when traders began speculating on a remain vote, a few did ok. Its like having your economy under pinned by paddy power or bet fred.

 

[Rangers Til I Die]

The dust hasn't even begun to settle yet and will be swirling around for years to come.
I am not qualified to discuss high finance and politics so I can only offer personal reflections.

I am / was a firm 'in' so on Friday and most of the w/e I was going through what can only be described as a grief reaction - disbelief rapidly followed by anger. I almost posted something on here that I think I would have regretted and I'm glad I did not. It's often good to pause before hitting that send button!

Being a rational person (sometimes!), and despite my 'in' stance, I have considered the possibility that the 'out' might actually be right! There is a possibility that in 3 to 5 years we may have great trade deals with Africa, Australasia, China and of course the USA. It is no one's interest for the UK to go down the economic tubes (though the nasty part of me would enjoy stating 'I told you so' to the out voters) so it is a reasonable assumption that wealthy and well connected business people and our political leaders will do their best to make the future as secure as can be.

Key issue - Immigration. Hugely complex and no simple answers. As an immigrant myself, I've come to believe that integration is a key. Don't live in ethnic conclaves where folks don't even have to learn English. Major was mocked for his cricket test but the principle of what he was trying to get across is sound imo. The racist elements are targeting dark skinned people ie the tram incident in Manchester. Africa is not in the EU. Why pick on the Poles? Generally hard working (really very hard working). If I'm jogging early in the morning and I come up behind a couple of guys walking to work somewhere, I have a little personal bet that they're Poles and I'm usually right. Part of the reason they've been targeted is lack of integration / assimilation with the general population.

I would absolutely love a second referendum but I've come to the conclusion that would indeed be bad for the country - my country, our country. Pulling together is now imperative. That means I have to stand shoulder to shoulder with folks who voted 'out' and we need to address their concerns re immigration and address the attitudes of those who do happen to be racist.

Merkel has acted with great dignity and I've listened to what she said very carefully. 'No formal or informal negotiations until Article 50 invoked'. So what about after 50 is invoked? The implication is that there is plenty of room to negotiate thereafter. No cherry picking? Of course she is going to say that but the final deal will involve some level of cherry picking almost by definition.

I reserve my greatest spleen for Boris. I believe this situation is partially due to his personal ambition and his manipulation of the referendum for his own means. I think he has lied big time and I sincerely hope he does not make it to be PM - ever.

Farage showed is true colours in Brussels so no need to say more about him.

As Churchill said folks, 'KBO'!

 

[Rangers Til I Die]

Still no apology I see. Oh well, only to be expected I suppose.
I completely condemn all racism wherever it occurs, but I maintain that there is a huge problem in our country concerning immigration.
The extreme right wing racists are a problem no doubt, but I have to say that people like you are the biggest cause of the race tensions in this country. You immediately decide that anyone who says immigration is a problem must have racist leanings.
Millions of decent, law abiding people in this country, many of them immigrants themselves are concerned at the levels of immigration and the effect on local services and their way of life.
People like you are to blame for the tensions that we see today. Shutting off all debate with cries of racism have brought us to this point.

I hope you realise the part you've played in all this.
(This also goes for Chaz and Oslo who liked your post that was directed at me)

Col, the vast majority of folks on here know you're no racist. I've previously commented that we seem to agree about most things but this vote found us on opposite sides. That's when people need to make extra efforts for mutual respect and understanding. It's the only way forward.

 

[ELLERS]

How is the FTSE doing

better than it was 6 months ago.

 

[YorkshireHoopster]

You are continuing to suggest, all be it in a veiled manner that I am a racist.

Please apologise for suggesting such a disgraceful slur on my character.
I have never condoned any acts of racism.
I haven't been evasive in any way. In fact it's you who are being evasive by not acknowledging that immigration can be a genuine concern

Racist 'incident' I think. Most of these 'incidents' (before and after Brexit) seem to feature abuse of kids, women and elderly people, which is hardly surprising given that they are perpetrated by cowards.

EU position seems pretty clear now, no easy access to the Single Market without freedom of movement. I think our leaders, whoever they are, need to understand that keeping the rest of the EU together is now the priority of EU leaders. Sure our trade is important to them, but not as important as the trade within the rest of the EU. In the unlikely circumstances that Germany loses free trade with 65 million people it still may be willing to risk that to keep trade with 500 million free.

Stephen Crabb first to declare for Tory leadership. A flag for the future I would imagine rather than a serious hope of winning. May ahead in the betting from Johnson, but who would rely on the bookies now? Would be interesting if a proper, hard core Brexiter stood as well. I think Thursday is the deadline to declare. Why then it takes until 2 September for 150,000 party members to choose our Prime Minister is still a mystery to me.

Small businesswoman on the radio couldn't give a single example of EU regulation that she is looking forward to losing. Only concern was her ability to recruit staff from South Africa. Hopefully not very representative.

Nigel Farage and his wife will have drawn over £4.5m from EU coffers in salary and benefits if he continues as an MEP until the next elections in 2019, probably when British MEPs will be kicked out. Then he gets a payment of £175,000 to help him over the shock of unemployment, and a pension of at least £71,000 a year. Good to know that someone has benefitted from our membership. Does any one think his habit of abusing fellow MEPs has had any impact on the development of the EU over the past 17 years, or that his presence in Brussels contributed in any way to the Brexit vote?

Still no apology I see. Oh well, only to be expected I suppose.
I completely condemn all racism wherever it occurs, but I maintain that there is a huge problem in our country concerning immigration.
The extreme right wing racists are a problem no doubt, but I have to say that people like you are the biggest cause of the race tensions in this country. You immediately decide that anyone who says immigration is a problem must have racist leanings.
Millions of decent, law abiding people in this country, many of them immigrants themselves are concerned at the levels of immigration and the effect on local services and their way of life.
People like you are to blame for the tensions that we see today. Shutting off all debate with cries of racism have brought us to this point.

I hope you realise the part you've played in all this.
(This also goes for Chaz and Oslo who liked your post that was directed at me)

Sorry for the delay in replying. I do have a life apart from this forum and a job that keeps me busy. You really are a self-righteous prat. When have I said at any stage that immigration was not a problem that needed to be dealt with. When have I ever said the referendum should be re run or that I did not accept the verdict? When have I ever accused you of being a racist? The points I have made are that the attacks on the Poles and other migrant communities were racist. If you don't know what racism and discrimination mean then I suggest you read it up. It took you about 5 posts to finally concede that the attacks were the work of nutjob racists and that extreme right wing racists are a problem no doubt. Before that you chose to minimise the incident and to blame others including myself for the race tensions in this country simply because I called a spade a spade on this one occasion.

And now you want an apology? Were your feelings hurt? Did you feel humiliated? If so, good. Then you might appreciate the effect of these minor incidents on the victims. But you aint getting one from me. By the way what precisely do you mean people like me are the biggest cause of the race tensions in this country? I think you'd better explain that because, so far as I am aware we have never met and you know **** all about me or my politics and behaviour towards others. However I'm not going to be silly and demand an apology from you. I realise it's just your crass stupidity that causes you to say these things. And that is my last word on this subject.

 

[rangercol]

Sorry for the delay in replying. I do have a life apart from this forum and a job that keeps me busy. You really are a self-righteous prat. When have I said at any stage that immigration was not a problem that needed to be dealt with. When have I ever said the referendum should be re run or that I did not accept the verdict? When have I ever accused you of being a racist? The points I have made are that the attacks on the Poles and other migrant communities were racist. If you don't know what racism and discrimination mean then I suggest you read it up. It took you about 5 posts to finally concede that the attacks were the work of nutjob racists and that extreme right wing racists are a problem no doubt. Before that you chose to minimise the incident and to blame others including myself for the race tensions in this country simply because I called a spade a spade on this one occasion.

And now you want an apology? Were your feelings hurt? Did you feel humiliated? If so, good. Then you might appreciate the effect of these minor incidents on the victims. But you aint getting one from me. By the way what precisely do you mean people like me are the biggest cause of the race tensions in this country? I think you'd better explain that because, so far as I am aware we have never met and you know **** all about me or my politics and behaviour towards others. However I'm not going to be silly and demand an apology from you. I realise it's just your crass stupidity that causes you to say these things. And that is my last word on this subject.

Thank **** for that.

I'm not the only one who thought you were accusing me of being racist.
And you were!

You're kind are the main cause of racial tension.
And I explained why in my previous post.

You started with all the personal stuff and now can't take it in return.
Typical hypocrisy.

 

[ELLERS]

So so bloody mad with Newsnight!
They had a conservative MP discussing the Brexit and how we can survive without the free market and how we can do it..... Fantastic finally someone with some real information and facts, but no, the jug-eared muppet presenter repeatedly butted in and would not let him answer any of the questions. So frustrating. Typical BBC. Muppets

 

[durbar2003]

Financially we will miss Scotland

Why do you think that?