Perfect way to disarm a coward with a knife...
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mate don’t fall for the rhetoric. Women’s safety is in the headlines let’s point over there and make it look like a minority.. in this case the trans community, especially as there is a lot of hatred for them, make it a big issue, when it’s not the case. Rather than Tackling the real issues as to why and where women are attacked, the home, pubs/clubs and public spaces… the attitudes towards women, what can be done to change it. The real threat towards women is men, not trans men/women. Not for a second am I suggesting that there hasn’t been an attack by a trans person.. and it’s every bit as horrific but let’s not let that distract us from the real issues
Beth well said, I know a few trans, and many other members of the lgbt community, each and everyone one of them has suffered abuse of some kind, the majority physical as well as verbal. A very good friend of mine won’t hold his husbands hand in public because he knows a level of abuse is coming usually sooner rather than later, he’s hardly alone. I myself was subject to verbally aggressive homophobia because I was glittered up for a parade and these blokes assumed I was gay. I for the first time got a tiny glimpse into the feelings and emotions felt, I dealt with the situation but can’t imagine having to live with that day in day out, the fear that at any point someone might take exception to you in an abusive way.
Like I’ve said in my response to Bob it’s not the trans community that present a threat to women.. it’s men, male attitudes and as a man I’m now questioning my actions, not that I’d ever attack a woman, but how my actions could potentially make a female feel unsafe, I think I got a lot of learning to do there.
Yup, men attack men and men also attack women (i dont disagree that men are the biggest perpetrators of crime). However, why give a very easy opportunity for men to self identify to attack women (also vice versa).
This isnt an attack on trans people. This is an attack on anyone who wants to take advantage of being the opposite sex very easily and being unable to challenge it.
There is absolutely no downside to self identifying to do what you want, whether thats trying to retire younger, getting cheaper car insurance or to the more heinous act of going into a womens changing room to commit more heinous acts.
If we want to accomodate the trans community so make them feel better, just get rid of male/female toilets/changing rooms and have it unisex but everything divided up (how practical and how safe people feel is a different discussion)
There are things i agree and dont agree here.
I was mugged by a black man and statistically (at least the police arresting and charging) are black criminals. I will not be looking at a black person thinking he could mug me as one that is racist and we are all individuals and an individual who decided to mug me, not because he was black.
Likewise, yes predominantly men attack woman but newsflash (not sure bow true) i think men suffer more violence from random attacks from men than women suffer (women suffer more sexual assault). Thats not going to make me walk down a street thinking i should get nervous about a random attack by another man.
I can sympathize with your trans friends as i can imagine they get verbals far more easier than the average citizen and it must be even worse in a less accepting environment like outside of a multicultural city. Unfortunately, society is ugly and bullies exist and people are either nasty, think its funny to banter. This stuff takes generations to change.
Oxfam has removed from sale a children’s game which celebrated the achievements of notable women like Marie Curie, Rosa Parks and Emmeline Pankhurst, because trans staff have objected that it doesn’t represent ‘all genders’.
Now, I respect the strong feelings Willhoops and Beth have on this subject and totally condemn verbal, physical, psychological abuse of those who identify as trans. Those responsible should be punished with the full force of the law. I don’t personally know anyone who identifies as trans (as far as I know) and that’s not a surprise as it’s estimated that people in this category only make up 0.5 to 0.7% of the population.
However, stories like the Oxfam one (source - The Times) really don’t do their cause any good at all. If I am to respect trans rights, and I am delighted to do so, is there not an associated obligation for trans people to respect the rights of others, not least to express themselves and to identify with and celebrate their biological sex? This kind of bollocks, and the idiotic cancelling rather than debating tactic, will only increase the suspicion and resentment that they are subjected to, just like the Insulate Britain morons. Sadly I suspect that it’s only a tiny minority of the tiny minority who are trans that indulge in such bullshittery, and the rest are branded by association. Also that many non trans people are making the most noise about it, like the supposed students in Sussex.
It’s obvious that gender identity has left some people vulnerable to abuse. But biological sex has left half the population vulnerable to abuse and it seems insane to me that gender identity should be prioritised over biological sex, which is the fundamental demand of the militant trans community (nearly all men identifying as women, it seems). As Beth says, just being civilised to one another, which means recognising our obligations as well as our rights, is the simple answer. But as Bobby notes, probably takes generations to achieve.
Now, I respect the strong feelings Willhoops and Beth have on this subject and totally condemn verbal, physical, psychological abuse of those who identify as trans. Those responsible should be punished with the full force of the law. I don’t personally know anyone who identifies as trans (as far as I know) and that’s not a surprise as it’s estimated that people in this category only make up 0.5 to 0.7% of the population.
However, stories like the Oxfam one (source - The Times) really don’t do their cause any good at all. If I am to respect trans rights, and I am delighted to do so, is there not an associated obligation for trans people to respect the rights of others, not least to express themselves and to identify with and celebrate their biological sex? This kind of bollocks, and the idiotic cancelling rather than debating tactic, will only increase the suspicion and resentment that they are subjected to, just like the Insulate Britain morons. Sadly I suspect that it’s only a tiny minority of the tiny minority who are trans that indulge in such bullshittery, and the rest are branded by association. Also that many non trans people are making the most noise about it, like the supposed students in Sussex.
It’s obvious that gender identity has left some people vulnerable to abuse. But biological sex has left half the population vulnerable to abuse and it seems insane to me that gender identity should be prioritised over biological sex, which is the fundamental demand of the militant trans community (nearly all men identifying as women, it seems). As Beth says, just being civilised to one another, which means recognising our obligations as well as our rights, is the simple answer. But as Bobby notes, probably takes generations to achieve.
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Stan...you have no idea how much I condemn the Oxfam decision.
Why don't they also remove books and games about men too ( don't recognize all the different genders there too). Get rid of Action man and Barbie too....for same reason. !!
Do you know there are more statues of animals than women in London.
This thread has all got tied up with trans rights, which as you know I fully support. I just feel we should just support everyones right to be themselves.
What has annoyed me a lot that everyone on here has studious ignored my post a few days ago ...about women having to protect themselves from men in nightclubs.
Yes there are violent women. But women have been responsible for a lot of the snidey, mentally vicious internet attacks on Trans people...which can be as bad as the physical attacks which are perpetrated more by men.
It's all bad, just stop it
Why don't they also remove books and games about men too ( don't recognize all the different genders there too). Get rid of Action man and Barbie too....for same reason. !!
Do you know there are more statues of animals than women in London.
This thread has all got tied up with trans rights, which as you know I fully support. I just feel we should just support everyones right to be themselves.
What has annoyed me a lot that everyone on here has studious ignored my post a few days ago ...about women having to protect themselves from men in nightclubs.
Yes there are violent women. But women have been responsible for a lot of the snidey, mentally vicious internet attacks on Trans people...which can be as bad as the physical attacks which are perpetrated more by men.
It's all bad, just stop it
with all due respect we both know several trans people and certainly my experience is people wanting to not have to live in fear, to be left alone and given the opportunities in the workplace that non trans people do.. while if you read what media an online groups they want mixed changing rooms so they can rape women and kids a million different identities and get given your jobs, sounds at least in part kinda familiar doesn’t it. Yes like in all walks of life there are some bad ones and some total people who have a bit extreme views, but the media don’t give Beryl from number 83 a big platform to speak for the rights of white English heterosexuals when she suggests those who practice sex outside of wedlock should be hung drawn and quartered.
I think i mentioned having harsher prison laws and firing squads if we were to ever go authoritarian.
We can make this a talking point though if you like Beth but i dont think there is anyone that is not disgusted by this.
Did you have any proposals/ideas in mind to combat this?
I fully understand why you want to fight the fight willy and its admiral and great you can sympathize/empathize. They should be able to live there life as they want with no abuse and enter whatever job they like.
The entire discussion here though is to allow gender rights to somebody who hasnt transitioned and just says "i am a women/man".
I'm not sure where you are reading your online groups from but i dont think anyone thinks that a transgender wants to go and wantonly rape people. We are talking about the ease of just self identifying (i.e. not having to give up anything at all except mutter a few words in essence) so that predators can pretend to be trans.
I believe this argument is a lot more nuanced as it isnt just changing rooms affected but anything divided by gender presumably. The clearest and most effective way unfortunately is physical genitalia to determine this else anyone could self identify to suit there own means.
Good luck to your friends and hopefully they can find a more accepting community.
You are right Bobby.
My trans friends are all transistioning or have transitioned as completely as they can.
They are identifiable as the sex they want to be. ...some have had surgery, most are on hormones or blockers.
I would really like to know how many untransitioned men ( it could be women, but it is hard to believe, that it is a viable proposition) would be able to walk into a ladies toilet, changing room, hospital wards, prision....etc... by claiming to be a transwoman
Why bother.
When I was at a London hospital, there were a spate of late night attacks on women nurses in toilets and changing room. They caught the b@stard, I am sure his way into the rooms wasn't by simply claiming to be a transwoman.
My trans friends are all transistioning or have transitioned as completely as they can.
They are identifiable as the sex they want to be. ...some have had surgery, most are on hormones or blockers.
I would really like to know how many untransitioned men ( it could be women, but it is hard to believe, that it is a viable proposition) would be able to walk into a ladies toilet, changing room, hospital wards, prision....etc... by claiming to be a transwoman
Why bother.
When I was at a London hospital, there were a spate of late night attacks on women nurses in toilets and changing room. They caught the b@stard, I am sure his way into the rooms wasn't by simply claiming to be a transwoman.
I have a gregarious 21 year old daughter Beth, the nightclub stuff both terrifies me and makes my blood boil. Even more incendiary is the constant ‘measures which women can take to protect themselves’ advice, which, though sadly pragmatically necessary, is a virtual admission that the men who are responsible will never change their behaviour and will never face enough punishment to deter them.
My son is currently in jury duty, on a rape, attempted rape and domestic abuse case, one of the few that the CPS can be bothered to prosecute it seems.
The NHS rule is that any man that self identifies as a woman is allowed onto a women-only hospital ward.
The NHS has been criticised for this policy, for putting transgender rights over womens' safety
So a sex offender not only self identifies as a woman, but also manages to get admitted onto a women's only hospital bed in order to attack women
Do you know how difficult it is to get a hospital bed at the moment Goldie!
How ill you need to be.
I think I am a lot safer in a hospital bed, than in a night club, pub, gig, club, park...or even just simply going outside my house.
Bob the point is it’s nothing more than a distraction by men to point the finger elsewhere, as whilst any attack is horrific it’s not where and from who women face the attacks, it’s from having to deal with all the rapey murdering blokes out there that requires addressing and that includes behaviours and attitudes of not just the predators but all men as nothing changes.
Thank you!! This is the exact point sexual predators get themselves in positions where they get easier access to their targets and more likely to get away with it.
The premise that they would do something that would see them hospitalised, present themselves as trans is a stretch to put it mildly, when sadly there are way more tried and proven ways to get access to women
Lads.... what do you think of this.
The attitudes at the bottom, reinforce and initiate the actions at the top
The attitudes at the bottom, reinforce and initiate the actions at the top
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Well, I think you're right about the availability of hospital beds and also that it's becoming an increasingly dangerous world for women whether domestically at home or in a pub or nightclub. And by "women" I include transgender women whom, I accept, are even more at risk. The situation needs to be addressed by Parliament as a matter of urgency.
But it doesn't change the safety issue of the self-identifying transgender sex offender loophole. In addition, this can apply in prisons or women/girls changing rooms etc. There have been attacks on women by such offenders in the past. Every such attack harms the trans community by putting its members at risk from criminal vigilantes.
Abuse, cat calling, mansplaning, lad culture.
All of it is just a lack of respect, that builds in certain kind of person to something else
None of us likes not being respected, but I have got to say a "standard" women get a lot more of it than a "standard" man.
An example:-
One of the reasons I retired early was a promotion that I did not get a few years earlier. At the interview the assessors said that they thought I had too many home responsibilities with a husband and two children. I was not consulted, the decision was made in the minds of my assessors that that would be my decision. I asked them why they had given the position to a man similar age and with children, they said it was not an issue with him. (I have no idea if they ever mentioned it to him).
All of it is just a lack of respect, that builds in certain kind of person to something else
None of us likes not being respected, but I have got to say a "standard" women get a lot more of it than a "standard" man.
An example:-
One of the reasons I retired early was a promotion that I did not get a few years earlier. At the interview the assessors said that they thought I had too many home responsibilities with a husband and two children. I was not consulted, the decision was made in the minds of my assessors that that would be my decision. I asked them why they had given the position to a man similar age and with children, they said it was not an issue with him. (I have no idea if they ever mentioned it to him).
If such a promotion interview happened now, Beth, I'm quite sure the employers would be in breach of statutory equality laws and you could take them to a employment tribunal.