Off Topic The Politics Thread
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Read the post you originally responded to. It was about the kind of response the ideological Briexters give to anything that challenges their faith. To be fair that goes for hard core remainers as well. Everybody is in denial. I wasn’t making any claims or predictions for anything. Because, to be honest, what’s the ****ing point? And anyway, I don’t know, any more than you do. We’ve gone beyond that, the positions are taken, the trenches are dug. Your responses just reinforce it.
I am assuming the worst, by the way, and making preparations for it, but that’s my choice. I’m lucky to have choices to make, most don’t, they will be passive recipients of what might happen, without lubrication, whatever they voted for in 2016. I hope to be proved wrong. If we had a government which had a clear purpose and plan for the last two years on delivering Brexit, even a hard one, I might be more optimistic. But we have a complete ****ing embarrassing shambles. And a shameful opposition. Why on Earth should I be optimistic about things? With our (in my opinion) worthless and illusory ‘independence’ we will still have a bunch of cretins in charge.
Police seal off Salisbury restaurant over 'medical incident' - BBC News https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-45541249
Yeah that's why every EU state has some sort of far-right member/MP's within its government except the UK. which by the way has none.
If that chip on your shoulder gets any bigger your arm will fall off.So basically all those thick uneducated racists will suffer unlike the smart ones.
You won the vote. It’s not my fault or any one else who voted Remain that we have a ****, inept government. There won’t be another referendum, relax.
they will certainly suffer moreSo basically all those thick uneducated racists will suffer unlike the smart ones.
The EU’s shameful crusade against Hungary
Frank Furedi
Sociologist and commentator
Hungary is being punished for one reason only: it takes its sovereignty seriously.
For some time now, Hungary has been the target of a witch-hunt led by an alliance of Euro-federalists and cosmopolitan politicians. The aim of their propaganda campaign has been to delegitimise the Hungarian government by portraying it as a xenophobic, quasi-fascist entity that threatens to undermine democracy across the continent of Europe.
This campaign of vilification against Hungary has to some extent proved successful. Hence a significant section of the European Parliament voted today to punish Hungary. For the first time ever, this institution has unleashed the EU disciplinary process, known as Article 7, against a member state.
The anti-Hungary motion passed by EU parliamentarians is based on a report by a Dutch parliamentarian, Judith Sargentini. Anyone reading this report without being familiar with the real situation in Hungary would indeed be horrified by the picture it paints. According to Sargentini, freedom and democracy are under threat in Hungary; she and others insist Hungary has become a human-rights disaster area.
In truth, Hungary is nothing like the horror story promoted in the Sargentini Report. Like other countries it has its share of problems, of course. Some of the policies pursued by Viktor Orban’s government can be criticised. However, for all these problems, Hungary is no less democratic and no less free than other European nation states.
In line with the current political fashion, Hungary stands accused of failing to respect the rights of its Roma and Jewish minorities. This accusation is fundamentally flawed. Yes, Roma people face considerable socioeconomic problems in Hungary, but their position is far better than it was under the previous Socialist regime. In fact, the current government is the first to send a Roma woman to the European parliament.
If the prevalence of anti-Semitism in a nation is going to be the criterion by which we judge a government, then the Hungary should come way behind France, Britain, Germany, Belgium and Sweden. In France and Belgium, Jewish restaurants are often guarded by the police; there is no need for that in Budapest. In Berlin, Jews wearing kippahs face threats and even violence. Not in Budapest. Jewish life and culture is flourishing in Hungary, and the government has a robust zero-tolerance policy towards anti-Semitism.
So why the mean-spirited anti-Hungarian polemics? Why hold Hungary to a different standard to that which is applied to other European countries? The driving force of this anti-Hungarian crusade is a fear that Hungary’s strong affirmation of its sovereignty and national values will encourage people in other parts of Europe to follow suit. The Hungarian government’s values are very different to the technocratic outlook of the EU federalists. The best way to describe the Hungarian government’s outlook is conservative, traditional and Christian. It is also democratic and very human. These are values that the EU oligarchy is determined to abolish, to erase from the European landscape and history, in order that it might replace them with its own technocratic cosmopolitan outlook.
There is no need for Europeans to sign up to the values of the Hungarian government, of course. But if you are genuinely democratic and tolerant and believe in pluralism, you will uphold the right of a nation to live according to its values, and you will be very worried indeed when powerful external institutions seek to punish a nation for doing so. The EU parliamentarians who voted to punish Hungary should be ashamed of themselves. They have betrayed the real values of Europe: those values of humanism and tolerance that were best expressed by the Renaissance and Enlightenment thinkers.
Frank Furedi’s new book, How Fear Works: The Culture of Fear in the 21st Century, is published by Bloomsbury Press.
Frank Furedi
Sociologist and commentator
Hungary is being punished for one reason only: it takes its sovereignty seriously.
For some time now, Hungary has been the target of a witch-hunt led by an alliance of Euro-federalists and cosmopolitan politicians. The aim of their propaganda campaign has been to delegitimise the Hungarian government by portraying it as a xenophobic, quasi-fascist entity that threatens to undermine democracy across the continent of Europe.
This campaign of vilification against Hungary has to some extent proved successful. Hence a significant section of the European Parliament voted today to punish Hungary. For the first time ever, this institution has unleashed the EU disciplinary process, known as Article 7, against a member state.
The anti-Hungary motion passed by EU parliamentarians is based on a report by a Dutch parliamentarian, Judith Sargentini. Anyone reading this report without being familiar with the real situation in Hungary would indeed be horrified by the picture it paints. According to Sargentini, freedom and democracy are under threat in Hungary; she and others insist Hungary has become a human-rights disaster area.
In truth, Hungary is nothing like the horror story promoted in the Sargentini Report. Like other countries it has its share of problems, of course. Some of the policies pursued by Viktor Orban’s government can be criticised. However, for all these problems, Hungary is no less democratic and no less free than other European nation states.
In line with the current political fashion, Hungary stands accused of failing to respect the rights of its Roma and Jewish minorities. This accusation is fundamentally flawed. Yes, Roma people face considerable socioeconomic problems in Hungary, but their position is far better than it was under the previous Socialist regime. In fact, the current government is the first to send a Roma woman to the European parliament.
If the prevalence of anti-Semitism in a nation is going to be the criterion by which we judge a government, then the Hungary should come way behind France, Britain, Germany, Belgium and Sweden. In France and Belgium, Jewish restaurants are often guarded by the police; there is no need for that in Budapest. In Berlin, Jews wearing kippahs face threats and even violence. Not in Budapest. Jewish life and culture is flourishing in Hungary, and the government has a robust zero-tolerance policy towards anti-Semitism.
So why the mean-spirited anti-Hungarian polemics? Why hold Hungary to a different standard to that which is applied to other European countries? The driving force of this anti-Hungarian crusade is a fear that Hungary’s strong affirmation of its sovereignty and national values will encourage people in other parts of Europe to follow suit. The Hungarian government’s values are very different to the technocratic outlook of the EU federalists. The best way to describe the Hungarian government’s outlook is conservative, traditional and Christian. It is also democratic and very human. These are values that the EU oligarchy is determined to abolish, to erase from the European landscape and history, in order that it might replace them with its own technocratic cosmopolitan outlook.
There is no need for Europeans to sign up to the values of the Hungarian government, of course. But if you are genuinely democratic and tolerant and believe in pluralism, you will uphold the right of a nation to live according to its values, and you will be very worried indeed when powerful external institutions seek to punish a nation for doing so. The EU parliamentarians who voted to punish Hungary should be ashamed of themselves. They have betrayed the real values of Europe: those values of humanism and tolerance that were best expressed by the Renaissance and Enlightenment thinkers.
Frank Furedi’s new book, How Fear Works: The Culture of Fear in the 21st Century, is published by Bloomsbury Press.
No.
NATO has.
Plus, the EU is not and never has been democratic, which is why your mate Jeremy has always been against it.
What the ****?
You're doing exactly the same with your responses.
I agree that we will still have a bunch of cretins in charge and I also agree that they have been completely inept since the vote, which will, most likely, make things a bit tougher when we leave than they should have been.
However, I think the main difference between people like me, Ellers and Goldie and you and your remain friends is that we have far more faith in our Country than you do.
I'm still waiting for one of you to explain to me how this Country managed to get by before the con which was the first referendum?
You know the one, where we were assured that we were only voting to join a trading block.
They lied then, they lie now and ultimately we will be better off out of the whole, dishonest, undemocratic, corrupt, protectionist club.
We'll never agree so we'll just have to see where we are a few years from now.
Whether or not you believe that the constitution of the EU itself is democratic (I still believe it is), wouldn't you say that its demanding of democratic process and protection of minorities in its member states is worthy of support?
That is not what I said. I will say again Stroller so you understand.
every EU state has some sort of far-right member/MP's within its government except the UK. which by the way has none.
Before people start knocking the UK and sticking up for the EU, get your info right.
EU and democratic sadly don't go hand in hand. I must find that fab article about how corrupt the EU is.
That is not what I said. I will say again Stroller so you understand.
every EU state has some sort of far-right member/MP's within its government except the UK. which by the way has none.
Before people start knocking the UK and sticking up for the EU, get your info right.
I do understand you Ellers, but I have to stoop to do so
I have
How can we ever get the country back on its feet at 52/48 ?
I certainly have more faith in the EU than I do with our last 15 years of government
The blame culture of the U.K. has imo gone way out of control. When all your information is fed to you via the media how can you suck it all in? I live in France and the U.K. and therefore I firmly believe I am in a position to look objectively at both sides. I have spent over 30 years having French property and can guarantee anyone on this forum that things work better over here.
The U.K., my home is now completely divided and as for the U.K. governments of the last 15 years could anyone truly say they have been great ?
I have faith in our country it’s the people I have lost faith in . Big difference is I believe that the default chip set in some people is to automatically support anything U.K. without questioning it. You said it at last we will never agree and there exposed is the divide
How can we ever get the country back on its feet at 52/48 ?
I certainly have more faith in the EU than I do with our last 15 years of government
The blame culture of the U.K. has imo gone way out of control. When all your information is fed to you via the media how can you suck it all in? I live in France and the U.K. and therefore I firmly believe I am in a position to look objectively at both sides. I have spent over 30 years having French property and can guarantee anyone on this forum that things work better over here.
The U.K., my home is now completely divided and as for the U.K. governments of the last 15 years could anyone truly say they have been great ?
We managed to get by before joining the EU by something called Keynesian economics (followed by all governments), strong trade unions, a functioning welfare state and a much more economically equal society. Thatcher, Reagan and their voodoo economics game theory gurus put an end to that, not the EU.
I despise faith in all it’s guises.