Off Topic The Politics Thread

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Should the UK remain a part of the EU or leave?

  • Stay in

    Votes: 56 47.9%

  • Get out

    Votes: 61 52.1%
  • Total voters
    117
  • Poll closed .
Goldhawk-Road said:
Agree, Col. But if intelligence services have 95% of the picture, they can then set it against historic context ie the Litvinenko murder, Russia's subversive activities in Georgia and Ukriane, Russia's involvement in arming rebels that shot down that passenger aircraft over Ukraine plus of course, stuff that MI6 will know about what Russian agents are doing that is not out in the public domaine
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Absolutely. Most of what the Intelligence agencies learn will never see the light of day.
 
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Goldhawk-Road said:
Agree, Col. But if intelligence services have 95% of the picture, they can then set it against historic context ie the Litvinenko murder, Russia's subversive activities in Georgia and Ukraine, Russia's involvement in arming rebels that shot down that passenger aircraft over Ukraine plus of course, stuff that MI6 will know about what Russian agents are doing that is not out in the public domain
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Do you think that was russias intention (to shoot down a passenger plane)? I guess we should blame Cameron for arming the libyan who then became ISIS who have decided to kill lots of innocent muslims and good Samaritans like alan henning
 
rangercol said:
Intelligence gathering is indeed a huge jigsaw and very often, it takes one last piece of info to complete the picture. This can take years sometimes.
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Exactly, now when Bobs van got pinched 2 nights ago. If he gets on well with his neighbours and trusts them, the chances are it would probably not be them. However, the gypsies in the site about 10 miles away have in the past stolen vans. They also said they would steal the van. With the pegs found on the street and a new tarmac drive where the van was stolen...
Bob blames Boris and the Tories.
 
BobbyD said:
That's the only thing i don't agree with.

Why are they the state to only have a motive? This is a perfect reason who are anti russia (see america, israel etc) to make relationships even colder between russia and the west. Why would they want that? well they are helping Syria.

Yes Russia could have easily poisoned him to send a message (the official story) but it could so easily be the one above. I could point to this guy was in Prison in russia, why would they then release him to give all their secrets away and only decide to kill him 15 years (or whatever it is) later.

Anyway, i think most people here suspect russia but some of us would just like a bit more proof rather than just going all journalist sensationalism and spewing outrage immediately.
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Who do you think poisoned Litvinenko, Bobby? Huge amount of evidence it was Russia. Putin has already created a law that allows extra-judicial killings of its citizens abroad. I strongly doubt that the US or Israel would ever use such nerve agents on the UK mainland, because if they did, and it was discovered, it would cause a deep crevasse between allies that would take decades to recover
 
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ELLERS said:
Exactly, now when Bobs van got pinched 2 nights ago. If he gets on well with his neighbours and trusts them, the chances are it would probably not be them. However, the gypsies in the site about 10 miles away have in the past stolen vans. They also said they would steal the van. With the pegs found on the street and a new tarmac drive where the van was stolen...
Bob blames Boris and the Tories.
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My neighbour told me to be cautious before accusing the gypsies. I then accused him of being a gypsy lover and a hater of clean clothes
 
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ELLERS said:
Exactly, now when Bobs van got pinched 2 nights ago. If he gets on well with his neighbours and trusts them, the chances are it would probably not be them. However, the gypsies in the site about 10 miles away have in the past stolen vans. They also said they would steal the van. With the pegs found on the street and a new tarmac drive where the van was stolen...
Bob blames Boris and the Tories.
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Do you know something about this theft Ellers?
 
BobbyD said:
Do you think that was russias intention (to shoot down a passenger plane)? I guess we should blame Cameron for arming the libyan who then became ISIS who have decided to kill lots of innocent muslims and good Samaritans like alan henning
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There is no evidence that Cameron was giving the Libyan's ground to air missiles. Russia was arming the Ukraine terrorists covertly over Crimea. Russia did not intend for the plane to be hit, but it must have realised there was a danger if such serious weapons were given to rebels unsupervised.
 
Goldhawk-Road said:
Who do you think poisoned Litvinenko, Bobby? Huge amount of evidence it was Russia. Putin has already created a law that allows extra-judicial killings of its citizens abroad. I strongly doubt that the US or Israel would ever use such nerve agents on the UK mainland, because if they did, and it was discovered, it would cause a deep crevasse between allies that would take decades to recover
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Now that is a very good question Goldy. I can think it might be someone but until I have evidence then I can't go accusing them without consequences
 
Goldhawk-Road said:
Who do you think poisoned Litvinenko, Bobby? Huge amount of evidence it was Russia. Putin has already created a law that allows extra-judicial killings of its citizens abroad. I strongly doubt that the US or Israel would ever use such nerve agents on the UK mainland, because if they did, and it was discovered, it would cause a deep crevasse between allies that would take decades to recover
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Haven't followed the case (was a bit young) but consensus was it's the Russians. Having had what 8 years passed im happy with the narrative that is was them. He wasn't poisoned with novichok though
 
bobmid said:
Do you know something about this theft Ellers?
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No, but I can honestly say I don't think it was Putin...however he had the two poisoned in Salisbury. Anyone who thinks he didn't really need to read up on Putin and Russia.
 
bobmid said:
Now that is a very good question Goldy. I can think it might be someone but until I have evidence then I can't go accusing them without consequences
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If you insist on video or DNA evidence in respect of these killings, then you simply play into Russia's hands and they will increase their activities. As said above, Russia is open about one thing - its right to liquidate their citizens in other countries. The international community know what they're up to.
 
Goldhawk-Road said:
There is no evidence that Cameron was giving the Libyan's ground to air missiles. Russia was arming the Ukraine terrorists covertly over Crimea. Russia did not intend for the plane to be hit, but it must have realised there was a danger if such serious weapons were given to rebels unsupervised.
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No Cameron gave them guns instead. That alone allows people to seize power. Hell we are probably arming the Syrian rebels now whom some are affiliated with isis

As for the ukrainians "terrorists", they are as much terrorists as the current Syrian "rebels". I understand why our media give these names though.

I love living in the west and I love our values and freedom of speech but I'm not going to pretend our government or any western government don't try to pull the wool over our eyes in the interests of our own country even if what they are doing isn't procedurally correct
 
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BobbyD said:
No Cameron gave them guns instead. That alone allows people to seize power. Hell we are probably arming the Syrian rebels now whom some are affiliated with isis

As for the ukrainians "terrorists", they are as much terrorists as the current Syrian "rebels". I understand why our media give these names though.

I love living in the west and I love our values and freedom of speech but I'm not going to pretend our government or any western government don't try to pull the wool over our eyes in the interests of our own country even if what they are doing isn't procedurally correct
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The point I'm making is that if Cameron gave untrained rebels missiles that could bring down a passenger plane at 33000 feet, and subsequently they shot down a Russian passenger plane, then the UK would rightly be castigated
 
Woodyhoopleson said:
I think it was most likely Russia, they have a history of stealing skateboards.
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Amazing Panorama program from the BBC Taking on Putin where reporter John Sweeney went over to Russia to check out the election. Funnily the nearest opposition leader was murdered. One was beaten up and nearly blinded and the other warned off. Sweeney was followed/harassed and then arrested on some stitch up. The Russian news tried to report that he was interviewing some unsavoury people which could endanger his life.
All roads lead to Putin.
Really does amazes me how people cannot put 2 and 2 together.
 
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