Off Topic The Politics Thread

[rangercol]

Col, everyone on here thinks the people doing the attacks, planning the attacks, recruiting the saps who carry out the attacks and just generally promoting the hate and spread of misinformation are at fault and fully responsible.

No-one is happy that terrorists are killing people. Blaming the killers via this forum won't bring anyone back and the people doing this aren't Rangers fans - so we can't communicate with them here. We can't rewind what has happened. What we can do is ask questions about how things evolved so it came to this. We might be able to change the future so we don't repeat the past.

The other thread was asking the question "Terrorism, Why?". There were thoughts and suggestions about how an innocent baby pops out of the womb with all the potential to do anything in the world and yet they turn out to feel being a suicide bomber and kill people is the thing they want to do with their life. If it was just one simple thing, then it might be simple to fix - but it doesn't look like it.

So we're getting ideas coming up in the discussion and some of them involve us looking at the actions of this government, previous governments and the consequences of those actions. Not all of them are pleasant to hear if you support one political party or another - but they need to be expressed and we need to think about what's being said.

The fact we're a couple of weeks away from electing the next government makes it all the more important, and seems to have heightened peoples suspicions about the motives behind the ideas popping up in the discussion.

Corbyn wasn't "blaming his own Country", in my opinion. Nor are the people who agree with him. Some of them are likely to be Conservative voters. They're highlighting a course of action that the politicians in power took at that time on behalf of us all - Blair, Cameron, May (as Home Sec). If it turns out to have been a bad idea, isn't it a good idea to discuss it and not do it again?

Reducing it to "My party/My Country - right or wrong" is how all this sort of stuff gets started. We should all listen more and shout at each other less.

I don't belong to any party. What's more, you don't seem to actually read or address anything other people write. Platitudes about listening more etc is not going to stop 8 year olds being filled with holes. The jihadists have said that our foreign policy doesn't influence them. They hate us because we are unbelievers, pure and simple. They aren't going to negotiate.
Corbyn lied about talking to the IRA recently and McDonnell wanted the IRA commemorated. Abbott wanted to get rid of MI5 and Special Branch. None of these people can be trusted with the security of our Country imo.

I'm no big fan of the Tories and I think they have made a lot of bad calls in recent weeks.

The terrorism threat goes far, far beyond party politics imo.

Rather than offering any meaningful contributions you just seem to tell people to look at things another way. Empty words.

 

[kiwiqpr]

Why are some of the off topic threads being put here
I think the terrorist one deserves better than being lumped in with the politics one
And why bother moving the election one a week out from the election when it's been doing fine on its own since April
Has someone only just noticed it

 

[Uber_Hoop]

I don't belong to any party. What's more, you don't seem to actually read or address anything other people write. Platitudes about listening more etc is not going to stop 8 year olds being filled with holes. The jihadists have said that our foreign policy doesn't influence them. They hate us because we are unbelievers, pure and simple. They aren't going to negotiate.
Corbyn lied about talking to the IRA recently and McDonnell wanted the IRA commemorated. Abbott wanted to get rid of MI5 and Special Branch. None of these people can be trusted with the security of our Country imo.

I'm no big fan of the Tories and I think they have made a lot of bad calls in recent weeks.

The terrorism threat goes far, far beyond party politics imo.

Rather than offering any meaningful contributions you just seem to tell people to look at things another way. Empty words.

What's the solution then, Col? Of course, putting more Bobbies on the beat, investing further in our armed forces and increasing the intelligence budget would all be welcome measures, but how exactly do you counter the threat of some cannabis-fuelled nothing, with his head filled with promises of paradise and virgins, from doing the bidding of some pretty evil bearded ****s skulking in the shadows?

If the estimate of there being between 15-25% jihadists within the worldwide Muslim community is correct, and one allows for perhaps their greater concentration in other parts of the world, there might still be 1 in 10, 20 or 30 living among us in Britain today, with maybe more coming in as refugees by the day. Even 1 in 40 or 50 is too high, isn't it?

How does one deal with the problem at its roots?

 

[GoldhawkRoad]

Many were thinking Johnson would drop a major clanger or two after being appointed Foreign Secretary. They've been disappointed.

I liked the Italian foreign minister's response to Boris' request for the U.K. to stay in the Single Market while not having free movement 'otherwise you'll sell less Prosecco', which was 'ok we'll sell less Prosecco to one country, you'll sell less fish'n'chips to 27 countries'.

If you are happy with Johnson as the face of this country to all others Goldie I would be genuinely surprised. Surely there's at least one person of you broad political persuasion you would prefer?[/QUOTE]




I wouldn't have chosen Johnson as Foreign Secretary, Stan, but so far, he's carried out the role satisfactorily. He has a good brain despite all the buffoonery, and has the personality to defuse hostile international diplomatic situations with his counterparts. But there is still the feeling that this cannon is slightly loose so we'll see...

 

[Sooperhoop]

What's the solution then, Col? Of course, putting more Bobbies on the beat, investing further in our armed forces and increasing the intelligence budget would all be welcome measures, but how exactly do you counter the threat of some cannabis-fuelled nothing, with his head filled with promises of paradise and virgins, from doing the bidding of some pretty evil bearded ****s skulking in the shadows?

If the estimate of there being between 15-25% jihadists within the worldwide Muslim community is correct, and one allows for perhaps their greater concentration in other parts of the world, there might still be 1 in 10, 20 or 30 living among us in Britain today, with maybe more coming in as refugees by the day. Even 1 in 40 or 50 is too high, isn't it?

How does one deal with the problem at its roots?

Simple answer is it's far too late now. This hatred has been festering for a couple of decades now, before 9/11, the Blair government's open door immigration policy to create more Labour voters paved the way and his illegal war just stoked it up. The failure to tackle the hate-preachers and the woolly-minded Liberals and lefties accusing anyone who spoke up against it as racists have created a nightmare scenario that will haunt us for a very long time. Corbyn and Abbott were and still are at the forefront of such thinking, God help us if they come to power...

 

[bobmid]

I think politics has to stop with terrorism. All parties should engage and come under one umbrella to try counter this threat we face. What someone said or did 20/30 years ago just becomes tit for tat and gets us nowhere. Politics and parties should be voted and chosen for, what suits you as an individual, family or for your familes future. Terrorism shouldnt be part of this. It should be a whole nation regardless of political favour discussing and implementing change we need to enable us to protect the very thing we are going to the stations on the 8th June for.

 

[QPR999]

Why are some of the off topic threads being put here
I think the terrorist one deserves better than being lumped in with the politics one
And why bother moving the election one a week out from the election when it's been doing fine on its own since April
Has someone only just noticed it

Terrorist related posts were being posted on the 'General Election' thread and general election posts were going on the 'Politics' thread. So in essence we had three threads debating the same topics. This is primarily a QPR/Football forum and not a political convention. As this site has a linear format so when you click on a 'thread' it takes you to the last unread post so you don't miss out on anything. All three threads were 'Political' so it made sense to lump them altogether to avoid confusion.

 

[rangercol]

What's the solution then, Col? Of course, putting more Bobbies on the beat, investing further in our armed forces and increasing the intelligence budget would all be welcome measures, but how exactly do you counter the threat of some cannabis-fuelled nothing, with his head filled with promises of paradise and virgins, from doing the bidding of some pretty evil bearded ****s skulking in the shadows?

If the estimate of there being between 15-25% jihadists within the worldwide Muslim community is correct, and one allows for perhaps their greater concentration in other parts of the world, there might still be 1 in 10, 20 or 30 living among us in Britain today, with maybe more coming in as refugees by the day. Even 1 in 40 or 50 is too high, isn't it?

How does one deal with the problem at its roots?

I agree with all of this:

Simple answer is it's far too late now. This hatred has been festering for a couple of decades now, before 9/11, the Blair government's open door immigration policy to create more Labour voters paved the way and his illegal war just stoked it up. The failure to tackle the hate-preachers and the woolly-minded Liberals and lefties accusing anyone who spoke up against it as racists have created a nightmare scenario that will haunt us for a very long time. Corbyn and Abbott were and still are at the forefront of such thinking, God help us if they come to power...

I've never claimed to have all or indeed any of the answers Ubes. As I've said in the past, maybe we will end up with Muslim only and non-Muslim Countries. I'm not saying this is right or even possible, but unless the Islamic faith undergoes serious reformation, the religion will remain in the dark ages imo.
I'd have no faith schools of any religion.
I'd ban all hate preachers of ALL religions from preaching in public.
I'd give the security services EVERY SINGLE THING they need to carry out their work.
I'd ban all posts on all social media supporting terrorism.
I'd have more police on the streets at every level.
I'd stop any person who as gone to fight for ISIS or similar from coming back into the Country.
I'd consider internment for anyone with evidence against them concerning planned terrorism or support of terrorism, although I'm not sure about internment.
Many of these will possibly cause more hatred against the West, but I'm not sure it can get any worse and trying to understand these people and putting the Country through a disastrous multi-cultural experiment (See Bob's first hand witness to this) has definitely not worked.
Perhaps it's time to go the other way?

There's more I suppose and I've said it all before on here in recent days. That's the problem, we just go around in circles.

 

[TheBigDipper]

I agree with all of this:



I've never claimed to have all or indeed any of the answers Ubes. As I've said in the past, maybe we will end up with Muslim only and non-Muslim Countries. I'm not saying this is right or even possible, but unless the Islamic faith undergoes serious reformation, the religion will remain in the dark ages imo.
I'd have no faith schools of any religion.
I'd ban all hate preachers of ALL religions from preaching in public.
I'd give the security services EVERY SINGLE THING they need to carry out their work.
I'd ban all posts on all social media supporting terrorism.
I'd have more police on the streets at every level.
I'd stop any person who as gone to fight for ISIS or similar from coming back into the Country.
I'd consider internment for anyone with evidence against them concerning planned terrorism or support of terrorism, although I'm not sure about internment.
Many of these will possibly cause more hatred against the West, but I'm not sure it can get any worse and trying to understand these people and putting the Country through a disastrous multi-cultural experiment (See Bob's first hand witness to this) has definitely not worked.
Perhaps it's time to go the other way?

There's more I suppose and I've said it all before on here in recent days. That's the problem, we just go around in circles.

You may want to sit down, Col. I agree with nearly everything you're suggesting. The only thing I disagree with you about is I think it can get worse if we aren't careful about how we act. It's bad enough that we have so many British people who have learned to hate our culture and want to change things by killing people. We don't want to create the climate that allows more hate preachers to turn more Brits into terrorists.

That means winning hearts and minds as well as winning on the streets. They can only flourish if we act without explaining ourselves and if we act without it appearing like it's a religious war. Fundamentalists like religious wars. We've got to make it look small-minded, medieval and ridiculous to be an IS supporter if you were born in the UK.

Multi-culturalism isn't a bad thing. This parallel culture that has emerged in places like the East End isn't the same thing at all and is a bad thing. Brick Lane is not a village in Bangladesh. That needs to be sorted out in a way that doesn't cause problems in the longer term. To do that, we will have to understand how and why these people think the way they do.

If 75% of all British-born Muslims already feel that way, there's only 25% to go, right?

 

[Sooperhoop]

You may want to sit down, Col. I agree with nearly everything you're suggesting. The only thing I disagree with you about is I think it can get worse if we aren't careful about how we act. It's bad enough that we have so many British people who have learned to hate our culture and want to change things by killing people. We don't want to create the climate that allows more hate preachers to turn more Brits into terrorists.

That means winning hearts and minds as well as winning on the streets. They can only flourish if we act without explaining ourselves and if we act without it appearing like it's a religious war. Fundamentalists like religious wars. We've got to make it look small-minded, medieval and ridiculous to be an IS supporter if you were born in the UK.

Multi-culturalism isn't a bad thing. This parallel culture that has emerged in places like the East End isn't the same thing at all and is a bad thing. Brick Lane is not a village in Bangladesh. That needs to be sorted out in a way that doesn't cause problems in the longer term. To do that, we will have to understand how and why these people think the way they do.

If 75% of all British-born Muslims already feel that way, there's only 25% to go, right?

Nothing wrong with multi-culturalism, it's big failing is that in a certain cultures it's religion becomes the problem and has been the problem for centuries. To just expect every culture to ignore such ingrained 'predjudices' and exist in some kind of cosmopolitan utopia just because the British and Europeans think it's a great idea is frankly ludicrous. Your post shows the same naivety that many politicians have on the matter thinking that we can all rock along together as one big happy melting pot, over 17 million voted Brexit with these problems very much to the fore.

One of the most concerning statements to have come out this week was that of the Imam of Didsbury mosque who said how the bomber reacted to being expelled, there are 23,000 more known to be like him and probably a million more sympathetic to such hateful views...

 

[TheBigDipper]

Nothing wrong with multi-culturalism, it's big failing is that in a certain cultures it's religion becomes the problem and has been the problem for centuries. To just expect every culture to ignore such ingrained 'predjudices' and exist in some kind of cosmopolitan utopia just because the British and Europeans think it's a great idea is frankly ludicrous. Your post shows the same naivety that many politicians have on the matter thinking that we can all rock along together as one big happy melting pot, over 17 million voted Brexit with these problems very much to the fore.

One of the most concerning statements to have come out this week was that of the Imam of Didsbury mosque who said how the bomber reacted to being expelled, there are 23,000 more known to be like him and probably a million more sympathetic to such hateful views...

Whatever. I don't think you need to quote my post to make a statement of your own. Just make it.

 

[Sooperhoop]

Whatever. I don't think you need to quote my post to make a statement of your own. Just make it.

Don't be so bloody precious, you asked the question '25% to go right?' That 25% will never change their hatred of all things 'western'. If you don't like the answer don't ask the question...

 

[TheBigDipper]

Don't be so bloody precious, you asked the question '25% to go right?' That 25% will never change their hatred of all things 'western'. If you don't like the answer don't ask the question...

It was clearly a rhetorical question. It didn't need answering. I wasn't looking for one. Oh well...

I don't think that the 25% (if that is the correct percentage) are likely to change their minds, either. My point when I was agreeing with most of the things Col wants to do, is that we shouldn't turn that 25% into 35% or 40% because of the way we go around trying to fix it.

 

[kiwiqpr]

How many Muslims in the uk

 

[Star of David Bardsley]

How many Muslims in the uk

Three million, give or take.

 

[sb_73]

How many Muslims in the uk

Just shy of 3 million. Google NZ broken again Kiwi?

So less than 1% potential or actual jihadis. But 23,000 is still a lot. If you take the other figure, that 25% of them are sympathetic to jihad etc, it's a very big number, 750,000.

 

[durbar2003]

How many Muslims in the uk

First one to guess the number within 5 gets an A trip to Syria including three meals a day, flight from any airport in the UK and a day trip to Mosul.

 

[QPR999]

They arrested a Libyan in Shoreham W Sussex today in connection with the Manchester attack. He was training to be a pilot at Shoreham airport.

 

[sb_73]

Just seen Big Mother's direct appeal to the voters on a Tory party political broadcast. As predicted it is back to 'a successful Brexit' (oxymoronic) and 'strong and stable' (yes she's still using it) v Corbyn, and the sheer terror of the possibility of a hung parliament. 'Which is what will happen if I lose just six seats'. Content free, wooden, humourless, but interesting use of a photo of her sharing a platform with Merkel. Presumably so we know what a strong and stable leader looks like.

Nuttalls being interviewed by Andrew Neill now, hoping for a humiliation. Already confused by Islam v Islamism.

Well, that was a success for Nuttalls in that he didn't actually **** himself during the interview. Otherwise Neill ably demonstrated how extremist these fruitcakes are.

 

[KooPeeArr]

Just seen Big Mother's direct appeal to the voters on a Tory party political broadcast. As predicted it is back to 'a successful Brexit' (oxymoronic) and 'strong and stable' (yes she's still using it) v Corbyn, and the sheer terror of the possibility of a hung parliament. 'Which is what will happen if I lose just six seats'. Content free, wooden, humourless, but interesting use of a photo of her sharing a platform with Merkel. Presumably so we know what a strong and stable leader looks like.

Nuttalls being interviewed by Andrew Neill now, hoping for a humiliation. Already confused by Islam v Islamism.

Well, that was a success for Nuttalls in that he didn't actually **** himself during the interview. Otherwise Neill ably demonstrated how extremist these fruitcakes are.

Please don't refer to UKIP as fruitcakes. They are visionaries. For a prize example, I give you this Suffolk based genius....

http://www.eadt.co.uk/news/election...opeful-aims-for-interstellar-travel-1-5026406

I have seen a copy of his campaign flyer and he's even costed it - mostly in the hundreds of millions - so we can catapult our space pioneers towards Alpha Centauri on a shoestring. Even the mining of the asteroid belt comes in at a very modest £1 billion. I think NASA could slash their budget if they talked to Aiden.