The most beatable WDC: Hamilton vs Vettel

Discussion in 'Formula 1' started by El_Bando, May 12, 2019.

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Would a team mate have a better or worse chance of beating Vettel than they would Hamilton?

  1. Better chance against SV

    100.0%
  2. Worse chance of beating SV

    0 vote(s)
    0.0%
  1. El_Bando

    El_Bando Found
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    I was just wondering the other day if Hamilton is the easiest world champion to beat as a team mate. So I did a bit of maths based on head to heads of which driver has the upper hand after a race. Below is what I've found for Hamilton:

    Code:
    Season   Hamilton  Team Mate	total	%
    2007	7	10	17	58.82352941
    2008	11	6	17	35.29411765
    2009	11	6	17	35.29411765
    2010	12	7	19	36.84210526
    2011	9	10	19	52.63157895
    2012	11	9	20	45
    2013	10	9	19	47.36842105
    2014	12	7	19	36.84210526
    2015	12	7	19	36.84210526
    2016	10	10	20	50
    2017	13	7	20	35
    2018	17	3	20	15
    2019	3	2	5	40
    	131	83	214	38.78504673
    
    Note: - Double DNF by both drivers is seen as a dead rubber and not counted.
    - A DSQ is worse than a DNF.

    So after this weekends Spanish grand prix I can see that his team mate would have a 38.79% chance of beating him.

    Not taking away anything from Hamilton as he is a great driver and much more likely to get the wins and big points. But on head to heads especially in an era of Dominance of teams and limited threat from external teams it's quite an interesting factor.

    Also he was only beaten twice in head to heads only to Alonso and Button. Rosberg could only level. His most dominant season over a team mate was over Bottas last year winning by a whopping 17-3

    So... how do you think Vettel will compare who has had a similar path in the same time frame? Vote above if you think a team mate would have a better or worse chance of beating him? Share your thoughts. I'll post the results after a time.

    Just a bit of fun.
     
    #1
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  2. moreinjuredthanowen

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    basically vettel has been favoured for.most of his career.

    as I recall at times Weber gave him a proper go but then vettel.would get the best car parts and laugh.

    then when ricciardo.came he wiped.floor with vettel who cut and run and Horner clearly said the car couldn't be set up how vettel wanted it at that time.

    at ferrari Raikkonen sporadically did ok. mainly in quali. not races.

    le clerc this far has been better than vettel who looks ****ed now.
     
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  3. BrightLampShade

    BrightLampShade Well-Known Member
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    Vettel annihilated Kimi and Webber which is the majority of his career covered.
     
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  4. Viva_Giggsy

    Viva_Giggsy Active Member

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    Ricciardo didn't wipe the floor with him, your find he had much better reliability then Vettel, who had awful luck that season
     
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  5. moreinjuredthanowen

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    He was very unhappy.. and the records as outlined in op may show a floor wiping.
     
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  6. allsaintchris.

    allsaintchris. Well-Known Member

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    Vettel's success was based on a car that was nailed to the road via the blown diffuser. Take that away and he has looked decidedly dodgy.

    That's not taking away the fact he utilised it better than his teammate, but Vettel's success seems down to having a car perfect for him, he does not seem to be a driver that can use his talent to drive around a problem. Even then, he has screwed up too often when he has had a decent Ferrari.


    It's a fun stat, but doesn't really prove much about a drivers ability.
     
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  7. Justjazz

    Justjazz Active Member

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    You can prove anything you like with statistics. I could prove I am a better driver that Vettel based on number of crashes, I clearly am not anything like the racing driver Vettel is.
    In my company car days I had a Porsche and had lessons on an airfield were I was invited to drive at speed, directly at a living person and swerve at the last minute (in fairness he was retired policeman and probably demented to trust me). I found that very nerve racking. He raised either his left or right arm at the last moment and I had to swerve in that direction. The swerve had to be controlled while also braking and parked between bollards, in one maneuver. Being feet away, directly facing, a living person doing 60 to 70 mph, not knowing which way I had to serve till the last, is not something i enjoyed. It is faster than a pit lane limit/stop in F1.

    Lewis vs Vettel in a Honda powered Torro Rosso, who would win?
     
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  8. dhel

    dhel Well-Known Member

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    I think Hamilton. reason: Even when a car is no behaving to his liking he works around it and still performs well. Example: This present Mercedes seems more suited to Bottas style of driving and even though Hamilton isn't quite in tune with it he is still performing well. On the other hand when Ricciardo and Vettel were paired together in the new Red Bull Vettel was struggling badly, this is just after winning four straight world titles. Just my opinion.
     
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  9. El_Bando

    El_Bando Found
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    Some would say he was working on a clause to leave Red Bull and join Ferrari. Though since being at Ferrari he hasn't been all that.
     
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  10. cosicave

    cosicave Well-Known Member

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    I think this question is the simplest route to supplying Bando with a meaningful, if not definitive answer. And I agree with dhel's follow-up.

    I also understand the apologists who may like the 'get out clause' theory for Vettel, but I don't buy it for one second. Vettel modelled himself on Schumacher and is very conscious of reputation and legacy - and no way would he have deliberately construed such a sacrifice. His unhappiness at Red Bull had two root causes: the blown-diffuser had been lost and outlawed; and Ricciardo.

    What can surely be said in Vettel's favour though, was that he was the best exponent of Newey's most recent example of genius.
     
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  11. El_Bando

    El_Bando Found
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    The question was more if you were to be a team mate of either Vettel or Hamilton who would you statistically have more chance of beating or getting a result from.

    Both drivers have had some similar talent range of team mates like Alonso, Raikkonen, Button, Ricciardo, webber, Rosberg... Bourdais.

    It could be talent. It could be luck. It could be defacto number 1 status that stops you getting that result.

    Hamilton vs Vettel is a different question. (I think Hamilton would win personally)
     
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  12. Big Ern

    Big Ern Well-Known Member

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    Webber was an Australian Grosjean, every now and again he looked good, but normally he was a ****-up waiting to happen.
    .
     
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  13. moreinjuredthanowen

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    There's 3 key things if you want to beat either man:

    a) can you out qualify either man

    b) can you man up at the first corner and say crash or back off?

    c) can you manage the whining in the team?


    The history with Hamilton is

    a) When hamilton is bothered he's very hard to beat to a pole. Vettel... not so much. Vettel is good and quick but hamilton can be stellar. What bottas has done recent is good but i honestly have to wonder does hamilton need a bit of motivation to get bothered... I'm sure he'll trash bottas when chips are down

    b) hamilton bullys team mates, if you cannot man up he will push you all over the track and beyond. Theres a reason hamilton backed off in bacu. Its not that he had to its cos i reckon he knew he's get hit and he played long game. aka bit of respect there. Vettel can make awful errors. as a team mate i'd be thinking he'd cock it up

    c) the whining. when things dont go their way both are insufferable whiners. hamilton seems to get angry though and when he does he's really hard to beat so if you piss off vettel ferrari will give you a **** car. if you piss of hamilton he'll got half a second quicker... thats the difference for me.

    MY view is If a team mate is capable they'll take more off vettel.

    HOWEVER.... history will merely show that at least mercedes have given both drivers equality. ferrair favour vettel and red bull did too. Also when hamiltons got his title he let rosberg have many races in a row. so.....
     
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  14. dhel

    dhel Well-Known Member

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    Why does people say Hamilton whines? I have never heard much about Hamilton running to his team complaining about anything. What I have heard is the Media asking him piss questions and he sometimes gives back piss answers. Most times people complain about things Hamilton says, they forget that reporters ask certain question and he answers then to suit. Some, i personally wouldn't answer, as they are always looking for something controversial to run with in the next article. I know, I am in journalism. But what I see if he hates to be beaten, and if you can name me a racer that likes to be beaten then you are naming a loser. No real racer or competitor likes to be beaten, they will sulk for a while. But it is what he does when the next competition or race comes, he literally destroys all-comers. Hamilton is like that, he loses pole and he destroys you in the race. he loses a race and he comes and destroy you in the next pole. So far, of the three races Hamilton has won he was beaten to poll, once by LeClerc and twice by his teammate Bottas. So you are right about that, Hamilton gets serious motivation when he is beaten, seems like the shakeup drives him to do better. And, I dont think LeClerc is back to his normal self since losing a race that he was miles better than everyone else, then the stupid team orders seem to be demotivating him.
     
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  15. moreinjuredthanowen

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    He's always whining mate. I laughed when I heard him on about how this season is different and mutual respect.

    the minute bottas pushes him.off track this season will will actually start cos he'll have a major moan then get angry and start really racing.
     
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  16. dhel

    dhel Well-Known Member

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    When he spoke about mutual respect etc. is that considered whining? I don't think so. I think he was obviously relating what they had agreed on as teammates. But yes, I agree with you, when push comes to shove and the championships gets tougher, things will change and they will drive each other harder, that is when things will get more interesting and a lot more exciting. But trust me, no racer likes to be beaten, you can excuse them if they react negatively immediately after, but it is how they go forward and pick themselves up when the next race comes around.
     
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  17. Big Ern

    Big Ern Well-Known Member

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    he's a whiner, that's why a lot of people stopped liking him. The only person who cried more than Lewis was Webber.
     
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  18. El_Bando

    El_Bando Found
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    The moment you've been waiting for.. I think..

    Code:
    Season Vettel Team Mate total	%
    2007	2	6	8	75
    2008	12	2	14	14.28571429
    2009	8	9	17	52.94117647
    2010	11	7	18	38.88888889
    2011	16	3	19	15.78947368
    2012	14	7	21	33.33333333
    2013	18	1	19	5.263157895
    2014	5	12	17	70.58823529
    2015	14	4	18	22.22222222
    2016	15	7	22	31.81818182
    2017	16	2	18	11.11111111
    2018	12	8	20	40
    2019	4	1	5	20
    	147	69	216	31.94444444
    
    So Hamilton is slightly more beatable though Vettel has been beaten in more seasons.
     
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  19. Justjazz

    Justjazz Active Member

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    Been away and just caught up on the comments.
    Lewis, mostly his whining is restricted to his tyres and why is someone on a different strategy, I don't see that a whining.
    Seb beats his team mate, as much by politics as talent, Lewis does it with talent.
    I think Lewis is better able to execute. I think he has more confidence in his abilities than Seb. That translates to better judgement.
     
    #19
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  20. Quite Possibly Raving

    Quite Possibly Raving Well-Known Member

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    "Slightly more beatable" is a big conclusion to draw from limited evidence (these data).

    Lots of variables it doesn't account for, perhaps the biggest being team orders/No 1 status, which have existed for many of Vettels seasons and none of Hamilton's.
     
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